Your pop culture reporter at work
Every now and then I check in with popular culture to see if it still sucks. It always does; pop culture hasn’t let me down yet. It also appears to be getting suckier and suckier with time, though that could be just because I’m gradually turning into the Crabby Old Fart.
At any rate, the pop culture scene this Monday is full of the news about Kanye West and the incident at the MTV Video Music Awards:
Kanye West is undoubtedly one of the most important figures in the field of Celebrity Performance Art. His work here was impressive, though personally I found it less evocative than some of his earlier pieces. But it did motivate me to explore the Beyonce video in question, which he referred to as “one of the best videos of all time.” I’d never seen it before nor even heard the song. In case you, too, live under a rock, here it is:
You will probably not be surprised to learn that I do not consider this one of the best videos of all time, unless “best” is interpreted to include all videos superior to the one for “Come on Eileen.” This Beyonce thing is just three women in stripper shoes shaking their asses. Yeah, the beat is infectious as hell, but the women’s heels are so high they look like they’re dancing on stilts. Their legs look so strained and unnatural and bowed-out (the result of trying to maintain stability on those heels) that my muscles ache just watching. Jesus, I yell to the screen, take off the fucking shoes! You’ll be able to dance so much better! And you’ll look better, too. Like a human being, instead of one of those gigantic stilt puppets of the Dogon.
But what I really want to talk about is the song. If we ever get a little too oaty with our feminism here and start fantasizing that society has fundamentally evolved since, say, 1966, all we need to do is listen to this song. In it, Beyonce tells her former owner that since he didn’t “put a ring on it,” he’s got no business complaining if another brother wishes to take a turn owning (or possibly renting or just test-driving) “it.” What “it” wants, apparently, is an owner who will deliver it to “a destiny, to infinity and beyond.” Then it puts the lotion in the basket and the ghost of Laura Nyro comes on and sings about wedding bells. Progress.
By the way, when I was looking for the lyrics to this thing I ran across the Wikipedia entry — an increasingly unavoidable occurrence, since Wikipedia entries are everyfuckingwhere. Are they the dog poo of the internet or what? Do not take your shoes off. Anyway, Wikipedia tells me that the theme of the song is “female empowerment.” I guess that’s what happens when the most popular encyclopedia in the world is edited entirely by pornsick 17-year-old boys.
In other VMA news, Axl Rose won the Howard Hughes Memorial Moonman for the video for “Chinese Democracy,” in which he beat and anally raped the entire nation of China. In response, Rose has filed suit against MTV, Viacom, New York City, Pepsi, Febreze, the estate of Michael Jackson, Slash, and Taylor Swift.
80 Responses to “Your pop culture reporter at work”
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madaha says:
that’s the video he meant? so sad for the kids of today - the quality of everything is so damn low. I miss the 80’s so much, when Kate Bush was on, singing about Wilhelm Reich busting clouds and Heart were rocking out and Cyndi Lauper was dancing in Trafalgar Square. Now THOSE were videos!
culturally bankrupt. creativity gone south. I know things are supposed to seem sucky the older you get, but honestly! Give me a chance here!
September 14th, 2009 at 10:25 pm EST -
emjaybee says:
The Beyonce video reminds me a bit of the old “exercise videos” that were really just pornographic close-ups of a women on all fours doing knee lifts, etc. Not a knock against Beyonce and her work. It just reminds me of those videos with the whirling cameras and flinging hair.
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LabRat says:
Apparently (if snapshot gossipy political blogs are to be believed), Obama called him a “jackass”, but off the record.
I can’t dream of why he’d want that to be off the record; it would be the warmest moment of mutual bonding the right and left has had in decades.
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ricky says:
Doesn’t this belong in your Raoul vault?
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Violet says:
Ah, no. I see that Patrick Swayze died today, and I’m sorry about that. Poor guy. But no, I never found him appealing in a Raoul kind of way.
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Unree says:
“If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it” makes sense only if the ring is a cock ring.
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Swannie says:
Beyonce’s video is soft porn , that is the standard role model for young girls and women in this culture . The music and entertainment industry is one of the last hard core bastions of misogyny in our culture
Some do not even question it. That is why I have been supporting women in idependent music online with my show GODDESS RADIO for almost 8 years now . The podcast is available here
http://goddessradio.podomatic.com/
The live show is every Saturday 10 am - 1 PM at cygnus radio . You can click my name to get there.
I am very excited to announce that Z BUDAPEST Founder of the Susan B. Anthony coven and DIANIC Womens Spirituality movement will be returning for another interview on GODDESS RADIO for OCT 10 2009 . Join us … -
ricky says:
It’s the erotic dancing. Compare with the porn video.
And because he was part Apache. It’s in the eyes.
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MojaveWolf says:
Violet, sort of off-topic, but since we’re talking about music and death in this thread, and I haven’t seen it mentioned elsewhere, are you a fan of Jim Carroll’s?
He died Friday.
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Violet says:
Compare with the porn video.
Porn video? What porn video? Now I’m completely lost.
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Violet says:
MojaveWolf —
No, never into Carroll’s stuff. He died! I hadn’t seen that. Poor guy — he wasn’t very old.
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Adrienne in CA says:
I guess that’s what happens when the most popular encyclopedia in the world is edited entirely by pornsick 17-year-old boys.
Now there’s an idea: if Wikipedia can supposedly be edited by anyone, could women start to remake “reality” by participating more in its upkeep? Has anyone tried this, and what reception did you get from the Wiki boyz? There should be no shortage of talented, precision-focused woman writers qualified to fill such a movement. Present company, certainly.
*****A
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slythwolf says:
See, now I’m wondering what video Taylor Swift won for. Because if it was White Horse, I say hell yes, that video is fucking awesome.
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myiq2xu says:
Over in the land of the Failbots they have decided that criticizing Kanye West is (guess what?) “racist”
Meanwhile, Barack Obama says Kanye is a “jackass” in an off-the-record portion of an interview. Does that make Obama a racist?
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Violet says:
Over in the land of the Failbots they have decided that criticizing Kanye West is (guess what?) “racist”
You have got to be kidding me.
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ricky says:
Porn video=I agree with Swannie.
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quixote says:
(Kind of OT, but …
The music and entertainment industry is one of the last hard core bastions of misogyny in our culture
together with gaming, politics, engineering, Larry Summers, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.)
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votermom says:
Taylor Swift’s video is quite sweet, imo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded -
monchichipox says:
Fortunately when I was young and my grandmother was our daycare this is the stuff she had us dancing around to. Every body loves Malvina though don’t they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sooNNv9qHg
I have lived since early childhood
Figuring out what’s going on, I,
I know what hurts, I know what’s easy,
When to stand and when to run,
And there’s no hole in my head.
Too bad.So please stop shouting in my ear, there’s
Something I want to listen to, there’s
A kind of birdsong up somewhere, there’s
Feet walking the way I mean to go,
And there’s no hole in my head.
Too bad. -
slythwolf says:
Awww, she’s the quirky nerd in the marching band! Okay, I teared up. I was that girl.
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sherry says:
Wow. So that’s what “female empowerment” looks like. Would never have guessed.
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myiq2xu says:
Something is obvious wrong with Taylor Swift:
No raunchy pictures, no pole dancing videos, no drug or sex scandals, no public meltdowns, no arrests, no rehab visits. Just millions in sales and tons of awards. She’s polite and appreciative of her fans too.
What a terrible role model.
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Lori says:
And the choreography sucks. I don’t know what has happened to choreography but it’s just not very good anymore. MC Hammer could have done something fabulous with that, but I don’t where he is gone. Fosse is weeping in his grave.
Speaking of Fosse, Beyonce ripped off the Rich Man’s Frug from Sweet Charity in another video that she did - and it was just terrible.
The music industry now markets itself to people who don’t love music. It’s lifestyle advertisement convincing rural and urban teenagers alike that they are simply entitled to a glam lifestyle because they are…. And that’s a message that sells to kids who have no idea where the ladder is. Meantime, those of use who actually listen to music need a machete to chop through that corporate growth to the wonderful stuff that is being recorded now.
For something wonderful and new, here is Ida Marie’s I Like You So Much Better When You’re Naked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR1yOJC_eEwAnd for some incomprehensibly fine choreography, here is The Aloof from Sweet Charity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnFQvlb2OA -
RalphB says:
Amen, myiq. wonderful young lady and awfully talented. my granddaughters all love her work.
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Both Videos Suck « AROOO says:
[...] Videos Suck 2009 September 15 by The Fabulous Kitty Glendower Just read Violet’s entry about the West, Swift, and Beyonce’s egofest, and must comment. Actually, if the comments were [...]
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Kookaburra says:
I’m glad that I’m not the only person who was bemused at all of the talk of “female empowerment” on wikipedia.
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angie says:
Yes, Violet — myiq speaks the truth — the failbots have concluded (to the best that I can understand what passes for logic with them) that those who booed Kanye for rudely interrupting Taylor Swift at the VMA’s did so because they were offended by the image of the “scary black guy dominating the poor little virginal white girl.”
Even the theories of racism are soaked with sexism. {rolls eyes)
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propertius says:
Who the hell is Kanye West?
Mr. Pop Culture Person.
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Lori says:
propertius,
Kanye West is the rapper who correctly noted that George Bush didn’t do much about Katrina because he doesn’t care about black people.
He’s not always wrong.
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Kali says:
if Wikipedia can supposedly be edited by anyone, could women start to remake “reality” by participating more in its upkeep?
Adrienne, check out http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=12716
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angie says:
Lori — as a New Orleanian, I respectfully disagree that Kanye “correctly” noted anything. What happened in Katrina was a class issue, not a race issue. George W. Bush didn’t do much about Katrina because he doesn’t care about POOR people. The fact that the vast majority of the the poor people in New Orleans happen to be black is because New Orleans itself is 65% black. Those rich people involved in the FL hurricane two years earlier and those rich people involved in the CA fires a few months after got help from Bush mighty quick.
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myiq2xu says:
Swift, who is perhaps most famous for being dumped by a Jonas brother, just stood there, looking dazed.
What planet do they live on? From Wiki:
According to Nielsen SoundScan, Swift was the biggest selling artist of 2008 in America with combined sales of more than four million albums. Swift’s Fearless and her self-titled album finished 2008 at number three and number six respectively, with sales of 2.1 and 1.5 million.[4] She was the first artist in the history of Nielsen SoundScan to have two different albums in the Top 10 on the year end album chart.[4] Fearless has topped the Billboard 200 in 11 non-consecutive weeks.[5] No album has spent more time at number one since 1999-2000. It also was the first album by a female artist in country music history to log eight weeks at #1 on The Billboard 200. In mid-January 2009, Swift became the first country artist to top the 2 million mark in paid downloads with three different songs.[6] As of the week ending February 8, 2009, Swift’s single “Love Story” became the country song with most paid downloads in history and the first country song to top the Mainstream Top 40 chart.[7][8] According to the 2009 issue of Forbes, Swift is ranked as the 69th most powerful celebrity with over $18 million in earnings this year.[9]
Yeah, she’s just some boy-band member’s ex-girlfriend. (Eonline even called her an “ex-JoBro groupie.”)
Sexism and classism rolled into one. (them redneck C&W singers are all trailer trash, dontcha know?)
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Lori says:
Angie,
I do agree that it was primarily a class issue, but being Republicans, there was even less incentive because of race.
I think a lot of racism is actually classism.
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Carmonn says:
adrienne, supposedly one of the most prominent guys on the pro-porn/prostitution boards works at wikipedia, I’ve heard if you look at how their feminism pages are edited and reedited it’s considered pretty much a lost cause.
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Aspen says:
I would rather drink bleach than watch a Taylor Swift or Beyonce video.
I also want to state for the record, I oppose in the strongest terms any assertion that there was not a strong component of racism to the shitty hurricane katrina/superdome clusterfuck of a response or an attempt to minimize racism by equating it to classism alone. They are both factors and they are not mutually exclusive in this event or in general.
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Topper Harley says:
@33
The last bastion of widespread acceptable racism is the ever-increasing educational requirements for entry-level position. It wouldn’t be acceptable to advertise that blacks not apply for that new janitorial position, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with requiring a four year degree which then happens to exclude minorities disproportionately. It’s only an added bonus that it happens to exclude “redneck C&W trailer trash”.
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Alison says:
Okay, is this where the 3rd wave really screwed me up or are we seeing different things?
I like the video and I find it empowering. I love that there are no men in the video to control the scene and I love the costumes - they are without bling and they highlight the strongest part of a woman’s body, our legs. And I love the dancing. I see African rhythms, a sort of boxing tempo as well as Broadway.
As a recovering 3rd waver I find the message empowering. The African American community has really low rates of marriage. And single parenting is $%& hard. Why not put a ring on it? Why not have that conversation?
The third wave has convinced women that a women’s freedom is sexual freedom and talk of marriage is so passe. Meanwhile, I have countless incredibly educated female friends who have given it all away to “boys” who do not grow up until they are 40 and then by that point break up with their older girlfriends to marry younger women and start their families.
Why is a powerful and sexy video of Beyonce calling out that absent ring so bad? And is an image of a sexy woman always pornographic?
I hear you on a lot of the crap out there and the constant sexual objectification of women. But the women in this video do not seem absent nor do they seem to exist merely for the sexual satisfaction of men. IMO, they have strength and presence.
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seattlegal says:
Ha! The girls in Beyonce’s video are like the cheerleader in the Taylor Swift video.
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Violet says:
Alison, have you considered feminism?
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angie says:
Lori — I think we are on the same page re: Katrina. I will not dispute that it was “poor black people” that Bush didn’t care about, only Kayne’s (and many other’s) attempt to characterize it as soley or even mostly racial.
Which brings up Aspen — I don’t know you, but I KNOW you — typical person who doesn’t know a thing about New Orleans or Katrina except what she saw on CNN but feels oh so free to pontificate about it. You remind me of a friend I had in college (from Denver, funnily enough) who went on & on about how racist southerns were & when she came home with me to see Mardi Gras was literally floored at the amount of black people in the city. (rolls eyes) So save your (ahem) opinions on “racism” for those who were born yesterday. -
Violet says:
I like the video and I find it empowering. I love that there are no men in the video to control the scene and I love the costumes - they are without bling and they highlight the strongest part of a woman’s body, our legs.
What exactly is empowering? The fact that women have legs?
For the life of me I can’t understand how young women have been conned into believing that regular old unreconstructed patriarchy is actually “empowering.” Look, some women dancing! They have legs and everything! A full complement of human body parts! Isn’t it empowering?
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Adrienne in CA says:
Thanks, Carmonn and Kali.
Figures that reforming Wikipedia wouldn’t be that simple.
That “Kaldari” person from the feministlawprofessors discussion sounds like a willing and informed resource. S/he’s right, Wiki is too important a reference to cede to male bias without a fight.
You must do the thing you think you cannot do.
– Eleanor RooseveltAnd if exploiting Wiki’s own training, conventions, appeals process, etc., doesn’t work, we can always resort to stealth. Maybe wearing a fake mustache and strapping one on would fool them long enough to sneak a few improvements past the gates. Seriously, one strategy might be ignoring the “feminism pages” for now (separate and unequal?) and concentrating on pages that get the most hits.
*****A
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myiq2xu says:
What exactly is empowering?
Choosing to support the patriarchy.
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Lori says:
Angie,
What on earth are you talking about?
Allison,
The only thing that is empowered about Beyonce in that video is her sexuality. That’s the only thing her character has going for her. Women, in real life, are personally empowered by the same things men are - intelligence, discipline and accomplishment. But there is nothing about Beyonce’s little stripper routine that is based on anything substantial. She is simply denying him sex because he didn’t marry her. he isn’t entitled to her. As i said, it’s lifestyle marketing for lower socio-economic girls who don’t actually know where the ladder to climb up and out is. They are empowered only because of their sexuality - something that only works until the first kid is born.
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Alison says:
Violet, No, I’m not talking about the women merely having legs. The fact that the strength of the legs are highlighted (in contrast with a lot of the imagery of women today that highlights skin and bones with the addition of a boob job). The march - y quality of the dance also has a powerful, militant sort of rythym which also highlights the strength in the legs.
Violet, your site has taught me a lot about the dangers of pornography and prostitution. I have sifted through your archives and I have changed my (recovering) 3rd Wave position on pornography and prostitution quite dramatically.
But one thing that I have been wondering about since coming to this site is - is every sexual image of a woman bad? Because I don’t believe that. And I will never forget how many women on this site were incredibly mean to Apostate for posting a tasteful and empowering picture of herself in a bathing suit on her site.
So how does it work? Is all imagery of a woman highlighting her body pornographic or is their a standard that can be applied to define what is empowering and what is not? and a standard for defining what is degrading and what is not?
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datechguy says:
Come on Eileen is one of my favorite songs and videos.
No wonder I like your blog so much, you have great taste!
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Violet says:
Alison, the imagery in the video isn’t the main problem. To me the dance just looks stupid and awkward. You say:
The fact that the strength of the legs are highlighted (in contrast with a lot of the imagery of women today that highlights skin and bones with the addition of a boob job).
But to me they just look like can-can dancers. That’s not empowering; it’s just an older version of sexualization. How is it “empowering”? That’s what I don’t understand. It’s just sex. You seem to think that if it isn’t actively degrading, then it’s “empowering.” The fact that women have legs and sex and can be sexually appealing is not “empowering”; it’s just life.
But the main issue I have is with the song. If Beyonce was doing that awkward stripper-shoe dance to another set of lyrics, it might be fine. But instead she’s dancing to a song that simply asserts her rights under patriarchy. The patriarchal deal is that men purchase sexual access to women, either through cash-on-hand or marriage. She’s just reminding her last owner of the deal. He didn’t come through with the ring, so she’s available for other purchasers. She even refers to herself as “it.”
Would a video of prostitutes doing the can-can, singing that if men want a piece of ass they’ll have to pay up, also be empowering? Look, legs! No men in the video! Women asserting their rights under the patriarchal contract!
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Violet says:
datechguy, you missed my point. I consider “Come on Eileen” a benchmark of bad video-making.
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Bella Donna says:
The one angle of this story that has been under-reported in my opinion, is Beyonce’s kindness in having Taylor Swift come back on stage and give her acceptance speech.
I’m not in love with either music video, but I thought the side story of women sticking up for each other was a refreshing change of pace in the pop music world. Of course it’s received about 1/10th of the attention then it would have if they had a terrific cat-fight backstage.
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Kali says:
Adrienne, I am not interested in enhancing a misogynistic empire, with misogynistic gatekeepers, or in lining the pockets of that pimp Jimmy Wales who started wikipedia with money from pornography. I agree with Ann Bartow that feminist energy and time would be much better spent directing people to other resources besides wikipedia and enhancing those other resources. We can work towards making wikipedia irrelevant. That is the “thing we must do that we think we cannot do”. You are welcome to invest in wikipedia if you want.
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Redhead says:
Bella Donna,thanks for pointing out the positive aspect of this ugly situation-I too thought Beyonce handled a toxic situation with extreme grace. She was kind of the victim here as well…and she turned it around.
Woman power well played! -
Alison says:
Violet, You are right. I gave the lyrics a second look and that part about “own me” - totally patriarchal. How did I miss that?
I think there is a good and empowering message in the song and video somewhere (asking women to stand up against men who do NOT want marriage and yet lead women on for years and years and years so that they can enjoy regular sex) the ownership part of it turns an empowering message into the standard patriarchal crap.
Oh, and I still like the African rhythms and dance steps and the female Terminator ending but you are correct - this is not empowering for women.
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Adrienne in CA says:
I agree with Ann Bartow that feminist energy and time would be much better spent directing people to other resources besides wikipedia and enhancing those other resources. We can work towards making wikipedia irrelevant. That is the “thing we must do that we think we cannot do”.
Wow, and here I thought reforming the existing system would be hard… OK, good — sign me up. Is there some “chickipedia” I should know about, somewhere in this alternate universe we’re creating?
*****A
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SYD says:
THAT was “the best music video of all time?” Good Gawd…. Kanye thinks that butt wiggling maybe tops Michael Kackson’s “Bad?” The man needs to get a frickin’ clue.
The real smack down here was not aimed at Taylor Swift, IMO. It was at the Jacksons… who were honoring their lost son/brother.
Kanye is a class A jerk.
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Violet says:
He said “one of the best videos of all time,” not THE best.
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SYD says:
Oh, OK. Thanks for the clarification, Violet.
I mean I knew Kanye was a sexist jerk. But I didn’t think he was an outright imbecile.
Still…. to place that piece of butt wiggling nonsense on a plane with “Bad” or “Thriller” is a real stretch of the imagination. Even for Kanye.
Geesh.
(Oh and sorry about the earlier mis-spell. Must proofread more…..)
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ricky says:
The choreographer on much of Jackson’s work, and was to have been for his last concert, was the choreographer for Dirty Dancing.
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myiq2xu says:
He said “one of the best videos of all time,” not THE best.
He’s still wrong.
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Jeff says:
Who is this ‘Kayne West’? I thought that was some kind of travel magazine.
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m Andrea says:
Is part of the problem that some people are thinking in terms of binary? If something is not overtly degrading to women then it must be empowering?
But I don’t see how any emphasis on female sexuality can be empowering, in a patriarchal culture. The “right to provide sexual services” to one who holds more power is not actually a right, it’s more like a justification for the status quo. It’s another version of “but it’s her choice to become a prostitute” — which ignores the fact that she was groomed into accepting that position from birth.
Would you see a bunch of dudes shaking their asses and demanding a new owner, as “empowering”? Changing the biological sex and then asking if it’s still fair or healthy is oftentimes helpful.
Allison already said she now understands Violet’s point in this instance but in order to recognize the sexism in all instances I personally believe one must first understand just how pervasive the cultural brainwashing really is. It’s like someone who realizes that they have a tendancy towards colorblindness and so they know that every time they think they see one color they know that they must exert extra effort to ensure their perspective is accurate.
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m Andrea says:
If I had typed what I actually meant it might be more like:
“Allison already said she now understands Violet’s point in this instance so this comment isn’t really about her but in order for anyone to recognize the sexism in all instances I personally believe one must first understand just how pervasive the cultural brainwashing really is. It’s like someone who realizes that they have a tendancy towards colorblindness and so they know that every time they think they see one color they know that they must exert extra effort to ensure their perspective is accurate.”
Suppose it still sounds sort of arrogant, and yet it is true that regardless of subject matter, there are always folks who get it immediately and others who take a bit longer. I suspect the older feminists have an advantage because in some ways the sexism was more overt when we were growing up and it’s easier to see that all this trendy empowerfulment crap is still on the same continuum as saying “but it’s her choice to act like that”. All of it ignores the fact that she was groomed from birth into accepting that behavior.
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cellocat says:
Jeez, I had ignored the whole thing until reading this post and watching the Beyonce video, which I hated, for the content as already described and my least favorite part of the dance, where the women fake spank themselves while bending over…
But the Taylor Swift video is also about a girl getting a prize in the form of attention from a boy. The guy’s current girlfriend is trampy, the video shows, and the main character is better and more deserving of him because she’s more demure, and because she (thinks she) loves him. I went to see Wicked the other night, and even there, the prize is the attention & love of the boy. I’m so tired of that being the primary narrative in so much of our society’s (so-called) artistic expression.
I’m tired and maybe not expressing myself well, but I am so sick and tired of seeing, over and over again, the good-looking guy portrayed as being the be-all and end-all, the best thing ever, the thing we want, the thing that makes us happy, the font of excitement and drama, and all things good and wonderful. It’s pissing me off.
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ricky says:
Melissa McEwan (Shakes) says Dirty Dancing was a feminist movie.
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Sandra, CA says:
#62 cellocat: “my least favorite part of the dance, where the women fake spank themselves while bending over…”
And ludicrous.
“But the Taylor Swift video is also about a girl getting a prize in the form of attention from a boy.”
Yup. Both videos reinforce really ugly stereotypes.
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Bes says:
Alison: Here is my opinion. Beyonce and girls were seeking male approval in the winning video if they didn’t they wouldn’t win. Beyonce’s smirk during Kanye’s outburst was sickening. I am sick of female “actresses” and “singers” who kowtow to men or need their approval. I don’t want to see women in sexual poses because I am tired of it, it strikes me as some bizarre kabuki. Taylor was set up as the MTV conflict of the year for publicity purposes. You do not actually think that Kanye’s outburst was spontaneous do you? What they didn’t count on was the public backlash. MTV can’t cope with the fact that Taylor is so successful when she acts normal and doesn’t jump around like the stereotypical MTV female sex monkey.
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ks says:
“#62 cellocat: “my least favorite part of the dance, where the women fake spank themselves while bending over…”
And ludicrous.
“But the Taylor Swift video is also about a girl getting a prize in the form of attention from a boy.”
Yup. Both videos reinforce really ugly stereotypes.”
Thank you! It’s the same nonsense. It’s funny how some people used the form to overlook the similar underlying message. The only real difference between the two is the style and attitude. Beyonce’s was aggressive while Taylor’s was passive.
Bes, what are you talking about? Beyonce wasn’t signaling her approval by smirking during Kayne’s stunt. As was pointed out above, she brought Taylor on stage with her when she won an award later in the show so she could get her due and read her speech that was interrupted by Kayne earlier.
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RKMK says:
Beyonce’s smirk during Kanye’s outburst was sickening
Beyonce was clearly mortified by what was happening, IMO.
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Alison says:
Interesting thread. I’ve learned a lot and I am not THAT young as I am pushing 40. But I was still raised on the 3rd Wave and thought Camille Paglia, prostitution and stripping were empowering for women when I was a college student. Thank god I was too sensitive to engage in any of that stuff myself because believe me, it would have been too easy.
At any rate - I just want to directly state some of the issues that recovering 3rd Wavers like myself have. The issue of the imagery and representation of a woman’s body and sexuality. How do we categorize what is good and what is bad? In a patriarchal culture is NO representation of a woman’s body and sexuality the only solution? If so, I can’t imagine that will ever happen nor if it does do I imagine that it would be the healthiest solution. Is the answer MORE representation of what women desire? A la the very hot Raoul?
I honestly come here with sincerity and I’m just not sure where to put all this for women of my generation and younger.
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Violet says:
But I was still raised on the 3rd Wave and thought Camille Paglia, prostitution and stripping were empowering for women when I was a college student.
You were sold a boondoggle.
For those of us who lived through it all, what happened was clear to see. In the 70s women protested sexism en masse, including all the sexual objectification in popular culture. The response to this from the patriarchy was to simply re-label this sexual objectification as “empowering,” and tell the little girls growing up that all us feminists in the 70s were anti-sex prudes. That’s the Third Wave of feminism right there. It’s as if Hugh Hefner just sewed a “This is empowering!” label right into the bunny costume. No other change.
I think what feminists of your age need to do is be aware of this “empowering” brainwashing you’ve been fed since childhood, and try to tune it out. Just look at things for what they are. That’s what we were doing in the 70s: studying the cultural messages, seeing how women’s bodies and sexuality were reified, seeing how patriarchal power structures were upheld.
In a patriarchal culture is NO representation of a woman’s body and sexuality the only solution? If so, I can’t imagine that will ever happen nor if it does do I imagine that it would be the healthiest solution. Is the answer MORE representation of what women desire? A la the very hot Raoul?
I personally think that what we were trying to make happen in the 70s is still worth a shot. The move then was towards equalizing things and getting rid of exploitation. Nudity was going to be equal opportunity — just as many naked dicks as breasts. Normal looking people, not plastic. Women’s sexuality expressed in their own terms, not as eternal objects of men’s desire. Replacing the male gaze with the female gaze.
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myiq2xu says:
“But the Taylor Swift video is also about a girl getting a prize in the form of attention from a boy.”
“The response to this from the patriarchy was to simply re-label this sexual objectification as “empowering,” and tell the little girls growing up that all us feminists in the 70s were anti-sex prudes.”
I would really like to see a discussion of where heterosexual love, romance and sexuality fit in with feminism.
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LabRat says:
I would really like to see a discussion of where heterosexual love, romance and sexuality fit in with feminism.
So would I.
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Carmonn says:
I agree that the two videos represent pretty much the same underlying message. It’s not a taylor vs. Beyonce issue, but that all of these male music writers are holding up Beyonce’s video as an example of female empowerment. That’s certainly not Beyonce’s fault, but it is something that needs to be discussed. If they were pointing to Taylor’s video instead, then that would be getting more attention.
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simply wondered says:
‘You were sold a boondoggle.’ - if you don’t want it, could i make an offer? i never got one of those.
‘I would really like to see a discussion of where heterosexual love, romance and sexuality fit in with feminism.’
not that hard surely - imagine fitting 17 camels, dark matter and the complete works of proust into a small jar that is already full of lentils. maybe it is the best thing to do with proust.
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Alison says:
“Women’s sexuality expressed in their own terms, not as eternal objects of men’s desire. Replacing the male gaze with the female gaze.”
Violet, I would love to know what this looks like. And I am assuming you DON’T mean Sex and the City???
Off topic, but… I’m feeling a bit backwards always putting things in quotes when I quote someone from a comment. Could anyone tell me how I do that fresh looking boxy thing?
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myiq2xu says:
Could anyone tell me how I do that fresh looking boxy thing?
You have to buy a premium membership from Violet to get the extras.
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Violet says:
Alison, enclose your text with blockquote tags, like this:
<blockquote>this is a quote</blockquote>
will turn into
this is a quote
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Violet says:
Violet, I would love to know what this looks like.
This seems like a funny question to me. Do you mean that you’d like to see a pop culture example?
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Alison says:
Violet - Yes, I mean a pop culture example. A movie or an image or a video where women’s sexuality is “expressed in their own terms”, etc.
The thing is, like you noted, my mind is littered with media examples of “the empowered woman” most of which are merely the same old same old exploitations. So what is empowering and what is exploited - I think I get it wrong a lot of the time although I’m getting better at seeing through the crap. But still… I’m sort of messed up like most 3rd wave art school grads who idolized Annie Sprinkles and Camille Paglia.
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Violet says:
I can’t think of any good pop culture examples offhand. Maybe I’m just drawing a blank.
It seems to me like a strange question because my own sexuality (and heterosexuality) just feels so organic to me. I like men, I like their bodies, I like sex, etc., I think romantic love is glorious and companionship is wonderful, etc. All that just feels like it’s coming from inside me; I’m not looking outside myself for an example of how to do it.
When my book comes out — if it ever comes out, if I ever finish the fucking thing — then that might serve as an example of feminist sex and romance and all that stuff. ‘Cause it’s full of that.
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Alison says:
Violet,
The question is more on a social level than on a personal level. I think if we can judge what is bad and wrong and demeaning for women in regard to sexual portrayal I think we need to demonstrate what is okay and even good and empowering for women (and men) in regard to sexual portrayal. Otherwise the 4th Wave will be categorized as prudish (and thus easier for the patriarchy to take down) just as the 2nd Wave was.
