Shave and get drunk, because you’re already brilliant
Apparently British commercials are just like American commercials:
Via Hoyden, who snagged it from Sociological Images.
This reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend about how men seem to lack the crippling self-doubt that is part of the Joy of Womanhood. Getting naked, for example: this is not a problem for most men. A woman who is about to go to bed with a new partner for the first time is likely to worry whether her body looks okay and whether she’s too fat or flabby or ugly to disrobe. Men don’t do this. Doesn’t even occur to them. I’ve asked several boyfriends and one husband about this, and none of them had any idea what I was talking about.
Men also, in my experience, tend to vastly over-estimate their own physical attractiveness. I had one boyfriend who was absolutely convinced that he looked like Michelangelo’s David. He did not, in fact, look like Michelangelo’s David.
Men don’t come by this confidence naturally, anymore than women are naturally obsessed with their own flaws, real or imagined. We’re trained this way from birth. TV commercials are just one tiny part of the package.
“Women: You’re leaking, aging, hairy, overweight, and everything hurts. And your children’s clothes are filthy. For God’s sake, sort yourself out.”
“Men: Shave and get drunk, because you’re already brilliant.”
Pretty much.
Update on the re-decoration: I’m still adding and tweaking. I expect to add the MEEGLA somewhere at the bottom and may make the footer clickable. I’m also looking for sidebar widgets to add — blogroll, etc.
136 Responses to “Shave and get drunk, because you’re already brilliant”
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Tess says:
Some women I know have always said that this is the reason women cannot be ordained Catholic priests: During Mass not one of them could say with any conviction, just dismay, “THIS is my body.” Somewhere there are always question marks.
July 18th, 2009 at 12:17 pm EST -
anna says:
The Pope says women cannot be priests because they cannot represent Christ during Mass. Men of different ethnicities and races than Christ and his Apostles are still acceptable, however, as well as such differences as men born without legs. But born without a penis and that puts you out of the running.
I say, if Christ was God and we are all made in the image of God, then we all are in the image of Christ.
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Keri says:
One major thing I got from Dianic Wicca is to love my plus sized body. I do fairly well- and get enraged by all the trashing society, media, and so called health experts make on plus sized females (strange how even from the health care “experts” the focus is so much on women… Hmm, I think Faludi needs to reprint Backlash…) I have occasional moments still though (the female self-hatred brainwashing is enormous, and it’s obnoxious how women like Oprah become agents of that (rather like the female Obots attacking Hillary, Sarah and Cynthia last year- yeah McKinney got trashed too by the Obots- she was the “crazy c—”, where Hillary was the “castrating c—”, and Sarah was the “bimbo c—”.
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Tess says:
Whoops: meant to say the women-as-priests snark was meant to be funny, the kind of joke we tell on ourselves…
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myiq2xu says:
Men have self-doubt issues too, they just don’t admit to it.
Other men I mean – I don’t have any myself.
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Leis says:
I think men have self doubt issues but they blame their perceived shortcomings on women. Women internalize their insecurites into a high form of self hate. We still process it completely different. Looks aren’t supposed to matter to women because men have so much more to offer. Whereas all a women has of value is her looks. And we are told that in a thousand different ways everyday. Like Nine Deuce says be fuckable or die.
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femina says:
I haven’t found that men admit to much of anything, unless it’s something positive or stellar, and either could be a lie.
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cellocat says:
fwiw, my husband’s body image issues are felt and expressed pretty similarly to mine. But then, both of us, in some ways, seem to have one foot in the other gender camp.
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Jeff says:
I’ll admit I have no self-doubt. I a 100% CERTAIN that I look ridiculous. Liberating, and any honest man will tell you the same. Right now, I’m going to play with my grandkids. For those few minutes, I know I look good.
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m Andrea says:
“The Pope says women cannot be priests because they cannot represent Christ during Mass.”
Oh my, that is the exact evidence required to prove what religious authority believes to be true: that females are NOT made in god’s image like men supposedly are. For all their denial, they truly do believe that women’s only purpose is some kind of inferior servant. So why continue to give these cretins any respect? They are pure evil.
I put this link in another thread, but it’s appropriate here as well. It’s about a delightful new book entitled Does God Hate Women?
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Mari says:
Men can’t really have the same self doubt as women in this society. A man and a woman could both feel insecure because of their looks but in most cases only the woman is hated, bullied or mocked because of it (and taught to hate herself for it). A man and a woman can both feel insecure because of intellectual or moral shortcomings, but the woman will be judged much more harshly while the man will more often than not be given the benefit of the doubt. An ugly, mediocre man will always be treated much, much better than an ugly, mediocre woman. And people apply completely different standards to men and women when it comes to looks (hairy, slightly overweight, plain man = normal, possibly attractive; hairy, slightly overweight, plain woman = ugly, disgusting bitch) Women are supposed to be the sex and support class and are judged accordingly.
A man can dress and act in a manner considered neutral or respectable by society, while a woman will always be considered by many (most?) people to be too ugly or too provocative, too stupid/incapable/boring/lazy or too arrogant/ambitious/aggressive/manipulative, too emotional or too cold-hearted, too feminine (and therefore ridiculous, stupid, weak, a bimbo and a whore) or too masculine (and therefore ridiculous, disgusting, uppity, an ugly bitch and also a whore). Oh, and often she’s both at the same time. A man doesn’t have to deal with this constant “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”, so he doesn’t get the (conscious or not) feeling that whatever he’s doing he will lose the battle by default.
Also, the vast majority of women experience sexual harassment or assault, the vast majority of men don’t (and women are blamed for it but men aren’t). How can this not contribute to women’s self-doubt and feeling that they have no control over their lives?
And of course, most of the time when a woman is the target of sexism she will have no one on her side, with even family and friends (women included) telling her “it’s not REALLY sexism”, “why is it such a big deal”, “but men and women are DIFFERENT”, “that’s just how men ARE”, “do you want to be a man?”, “stop acting like a victim”, “get over it”, “it must have been a joke”, “don’t let that get to you”, “just work harder to prove yourself”, “why does this bother you, are you a feminist or something?” etc etc etc.
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FLAConnie says:
I tend to agree that the vast majority of messages are directed at women and that they tell us “you aren’t good enough.” It’s a tough hurdle to overcome, and I think that many of the women I know have overcome it in varying degrees. Most, like myself, tend to try to ignore the onslaught, in hopes “it will go away.” I’m sure that part of the reason I’ve chosen not to go on the diet merry-go-round is my rebellious side. More or less, even if I were thin, I’d still be “unfuckable”, so why give up the chocolate. There is no way I’m ever going to look like Natalie Portman, or whoever is the flavor of the week.
However, one of our employees, an attractive, funny, smart 25 year old man has body image problems. He seems to feel that he isn’t attractive enough and needs “abs of steel” to improve upon his appearance. He got a small zit on his face and you would think he was a teenager about to be ridiculed by his peers. Insecurity sucks, regardless of gender, age or anything else. Thanks to the omnipresent advertising, we can’t seem to accept that we come in all sizes, shapes, colors and ages and that’s really okay.
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Alison says:
There are men with body issues but it doesn’t even compare. Female bonding has become sitting around and talking about cellulite and fat thighs. This starts at age 13 and goes on and on.
I think this is as big an issue as any, even abortion. (Ah, still can’t leave abortion out of the discussion!) Denying women the right to an abortion enslaves a woman. This incessant attack on women’s bodily image and self-worth makes women buy into their enslaved role in society. And how is it even possible for women to obtain 52 percent representation (in politics, in the media, in corporate power positions) if we believe we are fat, ugly and pathetic?
And this is a perfect example of why “big tent feminism” is so important. We can all come together on this issue. And honestly, it should not be that hard! All we need to do is work together as a group to stop consuming this crap.
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yttik says:
“Men have self-doubt issues too..”
Everybody has self doubt. What most men don’t have is the constant, 24/7 message that you are not okay. We are even supposed to work on correcting our “deformities” while we sleep, from night creams to hair curlers.
Someone pointed out that if MJ had been a woman, people would not have noticed his body image problems and his sad and constant attempts to cut out the parts that offended him. I wanted to dispute this, but than I thought of all the women who get breast enlargements, who diet to the point of anorexia, who bleach their hair, their skin, the face lifts, the tummy tucks, the bee stung lips. I think it is correct to say that if MJ had been a woman, people would not have found anything sad or unusual about his issues.
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For Your Saturday « The Gender Blender Blog says:
[...] Shave and get drunk, because you’re already brilliant. [...]
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Janis says:
I have said this a million times and am entirely convinced that this million and first will go nowhere, but PLAIN IS NOT THE ONLY KIND OF WOMAN WHO IS BULLIED AND MOCKED. The way men BULLY AND MOCK women they want to fuck is not a goddamned bed of roses. The viciousness, the pure hatred and evil of any man directed to a woman he wants to fuck who he knows will not give him the time of day is horrifying. This bullshit belief among women that being skinny and pretty turns your life into a bed of rainbows among men IS ANTIFEMINIST, WOMANHATING, and IT’S GOT TO STOP.
Remember that poor girl in the beauty pageant who was torn to shreds by liberal men for expressing views on gay marriage identical to those of liberal men — “I believe it should be man woman but great on America for giving people the choice.” If you can look me in the face and say that Keith Olberman’s seven minute long riff on her breasts was a COMPLIMENT or was less hateful, less vicious, and less savage and stemmed from his LIKING for said breasts, I’ll buy you a goddamned margarita.
There is NO ACCEPTABLE WAY TO BE FEMALE ON THIS PLANET. I cannot fathom why this is a mysterious thing to say so supposed feminists repeatedly. MEN HATE YOU WHEN THEY WANT TO FUCK YOU. Watch the part of Eminem’s video about raping Sarah Palin. Google “Nailin’ Palin.” Then tell me that ANY OF THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE had she not been what they want to hate with their dicks. Because that’s what fucking is to men like that. They hate plain women with their words. THEY HATE PRETTY WOMEN WITH THEIR DICKS. Fucking is an act of hatred for men like that, and if you’re thin and pretty, they will stew in a bubbling cauldron of hatred over you.
I am so sick of the underlying belief in ALL of these discussions that society adores a pretty woman. Society REVILES a thin, pretty woman JUST AS MUCH as a fat or plain one. Fat is not only a feminist issue — thin is one, as well. ANYTHING having to do with a female body is a feminist issue and a target for hatred.
Listen to men when they think they’re along talking about pretty or thin women. Tell me that their words aren’t expressions of vicious, acidic hatred. “I’d like to lay some pipe on that bitch.” “I’d like to fuck that raw.” “I could fuck those tits till they explode.”
And if you’re thin or pretty, and see this swirling in the eyes of some guy who wants you, try turning him down. Back off or run quick though, because he’ll want to murder you for it.
Just because society wants fat or plain women to be thin and pretty, do you think society has your best interest at heart over it?! Do you SERIOUSLY believe there’s a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow?! What do you really think runs through a man’s mind when he sees those supposedly ideal, perfect women in porn? Thoughts of respect and love?
DO NOT go back at me over “yes but the diet industry.” I KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT. What I’m saying is that the other side is not the bed of roses and marshmallows that the diet industry has women believing it is. They either revile you as ugly and unfuckable, or they revile you as a worthless fucksleeve.
There is NO acceptable way to be female in this society.
I’m going away now, because I don’t reckon this little rant will make any more of a difference or open any more eyes than the previous times I’ve said it. “Fat or ugly” is the ONLY feminist issue. This or pretty — not feminist issues at all! Men LIKE thin, pretty women. Especially when they say they’d like to fuck one bloody or go to the movies where the naked one is lying in a pool of blood after having her eyes ripped out or fucked with a dildo full of knives.
I’m not stupid. I’m surrounded by a society that tells me, as a thin, pretty woman, exactly what men think or me and what they want to do to me. And it ain’t “love.”
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Alison says:
Janis,
What ever gave you the idea that so many of us would disagree with you?
I entirely agree with you. I can’t tell you how many times I was called “bitch” when I was thin, young and pretty.
This is really an identical scenario. “Plain” Hillary and Super Sexy Sarah were the bitch and whore this year. It’s the same issue.
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FLAConnie says:
Janis, if my entry was responsible for upsetting you, please accept my apology. It was unintentional. I’ve never been thin or made to feel attractive. That’s my personal experience and, therefore, what I am familiar with. Fat women are invisible, asexual beings only useful for ridicule in most male circles. Beautiful women, on the other hand, are generally merely objects and not much more than a step up from blow up dolls. None of us are treated as fully human because we aren’t men. I agree that the way women – whether attractive or not, thin or fat, young or old – are treated is the bedrock of feminism.
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Sis says:
Janis we get it. That’s why this blog exists. We here, get it. It’s not what ‘flavour’ of fuck you are that men hate. They hate you just because you are a woman; thin, fat, old, young, smart, not-so, wealthy, poor, white, black. Etc. You are a woman, therefore you are hated. Whatever you are, will be what they hit you with.
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hilary g says:
janis: agreed, 100%.
men get self conscious, but the big difference, in my experience, is that they make one another feel self conscious. they subject one another to the same kind of scrutiny they impose on women. my boyfriend is so insecure about his height – not because of women – but because of men. he is always called “fag” because of his stature and his demeanor.
if asserting your gender identity necessitates putting people down to feel better about yourself, what does this say about masculinity? that it’s destructive, obviously, but furthermore that men need it to assert themselves at all.
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hilary g says:
well, not the SAME kind of scrutiny…their’s is obviously more about competition.
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yttik says:
I agree with you Janis, absolutely.
I believe those who meet the patriarchal definition of pretty really suffer. they get the added burden of being presumed stupid, like people project onto Palin. Then they get resentment and hatred from other women.
You can look at some of the women of Hollywood, they have money, fame, good looks, but many of them are miserable, they’re often in rehab or on a mental health hold. Poor Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, and lately Mischa Barton. As Violet said it’s constantly like “For God’s sake, sort yourself out.” You can’t sort yourself out, there really is no acceptable way to be female in this society. Gorgeous, rich, famous, young, it’s still not good enough. In fact, in some ways it may be worse.
LOL, I’m telling you, 40 was my best birthday ever. There’s something really freeing in leaving all that crap behind.
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Swannie says:
yes Janis, being pretty and thin and even blonde and blue eyed and smart ..will get you beaten black and blue by your “loving husband” if you don’t do right . It can get you killed in this society , but as you said just being a woman can do that … I love living alone …and not being owned ;)
Imagine if young women grew up not seeking male approval ? -
Sis says:
I see you and some other women talking about “leaving all that crap behind”. How did you manage that? Did you stop being a woman at 40? It never ends. You can be 67 and still raise some man’s ire because you didn’t smile at him, or respond to his greeting, or enquire if he’s having a bad day (because it’s your responsibility, a female, to fix it); get a lecture from some other person when you don’t respond to strange men who “are giving you a compliment” because “it never hurts to be nice”. I am very happy to be very attractive. It’s mine. Fuck off. Good looking men don’t have to grace the ego of every twit that comes within a block of them.
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Three Wickets says:
Near two thirds of the people who work in US advertising agencies these days are women. Many third wavers. More and more female chief executives. Their clients vary in gender composition depending on the nature of the company and its products. But there is still a predominance of men among client marketing executives, which can lead to a problematic gender dynamic when working with their ad agencies. The marketing industry as a whole though is nowhere near as male dominated as the financial industry and its contingent sexism. Hollywood and Television as businesses (not the on camera people) are also comparable to finance in their male dominance. So it is not surprising that most (not all) of what comes across theatre and tv screens still have the character of men trying to appeal to a general audience which more often than not has a larger female skew. The commercial web (exluding adult), like advertising agencies, is more evenly balanced in its gender composition. Though any feminist impact is driven mainly by third or post wave points of view. That’s my sense.
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Three Wickets says:
That British clip up top is atrocious. It’s a problem when these inherently sexist content gets passed off in the name of irony. You can imagine the uproar over a comparably racist sketch under the guise of irony. I was discussing on another blog this film from a while back called “Boxing Helena” which was made by the daughter of the eccentric film director David Lynch (Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet). It was intended I believe to convey a dark and weird metaphor of sexism in hetero relationships. But it did not work, and the effect in my opinion was worse than neutral.
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myiq2xu says:
Wow! Couple of points:
1. Not all men hate women. Not even most men.
2. Hating men solves nothing.
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Violet says:
Does anybody remember the Ab Fab episode when Patsy and Eddy hired a couple of gigolos so Eddy could finally get laid? Eddy was a nervous wreck about how she looked, whether the guy would find her attractive, etc. Which is exactly how most women would feel in that situation, I think.
But obviously the millions of men who hire prostitutes don’t worry themselves sick over whether the woman is going to find them attractive. Doesn’t even enter their minds.
Similarly, the world is full of ancient decrepit rich men who happily marry young trophy wives. An ancient decrepit rich woman with the opportunity to hook up with a young husband would probably feel some anxiety over whether he really found her attractive. I’m pretty sure ancient decrepit rich men never give it a second thought.
Of course a big part of that is that men are conditioned to think of women as things to be used. Women exist to serve them. Whereas women are trained from birth to be man-pleasers and servants.
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Hammer of the Dyke says:
#27
Hmm. We need a man to tell us about our own experiences of being on the receiving end of male hatred? I think not. As a woman, I speak with authority when I say that yes, Virginia, men hate women. And a hearty, “Fuck you!” to any man who deems himself so great that he can place himself in a position of judgment upon me, or upon any woman. Hating men may solve nothing, but hating women often leads to death or permanent disability and, guaranteed, plain fucking misery.Now, you may consider yourself an exception, but I wonder if the women who know you would agree. Somehow, I think someone who finds it necessary to bloviate about his IQ in his user name is not the most enlightened of souls.
Couple of points:
1. Maybe you should try broadening your horizons a bit so you can understand what is being discussed here. Since most women, in fact, like men, we would be happy to direct you to some appropriate resources.
2. Criticism of and disgust for the culturally- enforced male way of being in the world does not equal hatred, necessarily. But after living as a member of the oppressed, sex class known as women, we have every fucking right to hate you if we choose. Men as a class deserve it. Consider yourself lucky if you don’t get what you deserve.
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myiq2xu says:
Hammer:
Let me know how all that hating works out for you.
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myiq2xu says:
BTW – my alias was given to me by my daughter several years ago and it’s meant as a joke.
I keep in in part because I noticed that the way people react to it reveals a lot about them.
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Sis says:
This happens every time that prick shows up here.
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octogalore says:
Violet re #28: yes, absolutely. We probably all recall Charlie Sheen’s disgusting statement about “I pay them to leave.” I have suspected that a man I know (he is 40) occasionally acts as escort to older women, and saw him out today at brunch in circumstances that I and my husband thought backed that up. While it occurred to me that the woman he was with (she appeared to be a very fit 60) had dressed up for the occasion, my husband — who’s pretty decent as a feminist ally, as guys go — couldn’t stop talking about how icky it all was. Whereas, he doesn’t get as turned off with the reverse situation (in which, of course, the guy more often than not isn’t in shape, dressed up, or bothering to do brunch before the after-event). While my husband admitted his bias, I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon.
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octogalore says:
Sis re #24: I had the same reaction re “leaving it behind” at 40 (I’m 41). The idea that women “leave it behind” at 40 appears to buy in to the societal norms that we are critiquing. First off, some women after 40 are attractive even in the restricted conventional view. Second, even where that isn’t the case, eg Hillary Clinton (who I think looks great), doesn’t leave it behind — remember the cracks about her cleavage showing? She is either inappropriately feminine, or not feminine enough.
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Violet says:
Let me know how all that hating works out for you.
myiq2xu, this is a feminist space. In a feminist space, women are free to discuss how patriarchy works, including references to “men” as a group. They are free to do this without constantly affirming that they don’t hate all men, that they know that not all men are bad, etc., etc. — the kind of craven appeasement that is usually expected of us and that we must perform without fail whenever men are in earshot.
When you’re in a feminist space, you need to remember that.
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slythwolf says:
I was going to point out–okay, wait a minute, this comment is going to contain what a lot of people will probably consider TMI. Fair warning.
I was going to point out my husband as an exception to this, because after a year of marriage and three and a half of living together he still cups his hands over his genitals when he has to be naked in front of me, unless there is sex happening.
But then I realized: no. What that is is the one area in which men can and do manifest bodily insecurity. Because what it is is that he doesn’t want me to see his penis when it’s “little”.
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Sis says:
I get young men putting the moves on me all the time. I look, without artifice, about 25 years younger. Part of that is race, maybe. The other part is, just in my family. We all do. No make-up, hair ‘style’ or colour. Nothing. Anyway, when men (from in their 20s up) find out, as I have to let them know eventually, say, in the gym, after three months of being pleasantly standoffish, they get mad. Visibly angry. Like I nearly pulled off some heinous sin against nature. Their widdo faces fall, they flush, glare, flared nostrils. Never acknowledge my existence again. I do absolutely nothing to encourage this. I’m not one of those women who doesn’t know her age. But really, it’s comical. And very interesting. If I was an anthropologist.
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Hammer of the Dyke says:
#32 Sis
I will not feed the troll again.#35 Violet
Thanks for cleaning up after me. -
Violet says:
myiq2xu is not a troll. He’s a regular commenter here and quite welcome. But he is a rookie when it comes to feminist blogs. Things which enrage women here or on most feminist blogs — he doesn’t even realize they’re faux pas. So I’m telling him.
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Andi says:
What a strange web of gender confusion I just went through. After my comment in the previous thread two days ago… “…’shaved my legs’ and ‘had one too many beers’ would be the highlights of my day.” … I thought this blog post was about me (yes, I can be that self centered).
Imagine my dismay when I got to the end to the clip and discovered that Dr. Sox thought I was a leg shaving guy, or something. Then, I realized the clip was not about me and that I must fit the image of a guy more than the woman I am. Then I sneezed and pissed my pants, and now I’m firmly back in the sisterhood again.
Geesh. You’d think after 40+ years I’d have figured it out.
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Andi says:
Janis was right – and I appreciate the heads up that I don’t have to continually qualify my statements with “I’m not talking about all guys”.
Men are pigs. Except hubby (sorry, couldn’t help myself).
If young women are deemed unattractive, they become the brunt of jokes, snide looks and comments, and a general attitude of worthlessness.
Young women that are naturally attractive have their own problems. They become receptacles for male created sexual imagery. They are either sluts or dykes. Either one will do, as they both fill empty heads with pleasant thoughts. (and, yes, if you’re attractive, not a dyke, and refuse an offer – you’re a bitch, ’cause you’re a slut that said ‘no’.).
Too often, young women accept these labels (worthless, slut, dyke, bitch) as their own self images, and then spend the rest of their days judging themselves accordingly.
I don’t have much hope that men will ever change. They are doing what comes natural (being pigs that is). We can insist they conduct themselves to our liking in public, but when responsible mature women (old bithes) are away – they shed the pretext.
Time and effort, in my opinion, is better spent providing more healthy images for young women to adopt. Self image is not optional, it is a necessity of life. If young women are not given a healthy self image (or create one themselves) they WILL adopt the male created ones.
For us older self doubting and generally confused chicks – forget about it. We’re screwed. Let’s just work on the next batch.
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Violet says:
True on the hassle of being hawt. When I was young and sexy, the unwanted attention from men was just a huge pain. I’m shy and neurotic, too, so walking down the street was traumatizing for me.
Now I’m old and invisible, which is a different kind of problem.
slythwolf, that is too funny about your hubby. In the spirit of TMI: When I divorced my husband (this was 20 years ago) he was very jealous of my new boyfriend. And the number one question burning a hole in his mind was, “is his dick bigger than mine?” Swear to God. Number one question. Not “do you love him more?” or “is he nicer to you than I was?” But “is his dick bigger than mine?”
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Branjor says:
***Janis was right – and I appreciate the heads up that I don’t have to continually qualify my statements with “I’m not talking about all guys”.***
Yet in all my years of reading feminist blogs I’ve never read a thread, up to and including this one, that didn’t “have to” qualify just that. I think the troll/not troll got more than enough feeding on this thread and managed to derail it quite nicely. And so what if a woman did hate “all guys”? Crucify her.
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Violet says:
I would like to have a world-wide Opposite Day in which men have to constantly affirm in every conversation that they don’t hate all women. Every sexist joke, misogynist rant, or basic low-level grumbling would have to be accompanied by reassurances to all and sundry that the speaker doesn’t hate women, in fact respects and loves women and knows that there are many many good women in the world, etc. etc.
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Andi says:
***I’ve never read a thread, up to and including this one, that didn’t “have to” qualify just that***
Well, if we’re going to derail…
I resent men pushing their images of women upon women. To maintain some sense of intellectual honesty, I cannot turn around and push a stereotype of men… can I?
Because I perceive this blog to be mature and thoughtful, filled with women who understand the complexity between thought and word, I can accept that my own unqualified statements – after qualifying my nonqualifications.
In other forums, both on internet and in the real world, I consider the listener’s understanding and fill my statements with qualifications (seems to me, in general, imo, mostly, men have a tendance to…).
Whatever. I doubt my lack of ability to unqualify without qualifying has anything to do with gender issues…?
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Andi says:
…I can accept my own unqualified statements…
must proof read more!
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FLAConnie says:
If only the myth of “the DICK is the measure of the man” could be dispelled. We’ve had the discussion before that bigger is not always better, especially if it’s too big! It can be like trying to get a size 10 foot into a size 7 shoe.
What really defines manhood? Why must men “prove” their manhood? I think because there is no NATURAL rite of passage into manhood, only societal constructs, like: a barmitzvah for passage from boyhood to manhood in the Jewish faith; the killing of a lion for the Masai males; fathers taking their son hunting for the first time or to a hooker to get him laid. But have any of you, as women, ever questioned your womanhood? I think not. We have a NATURAL rite of passage from girlhood to womanhood – MENSTRUATION. Of course, Patriarchal society has denigrated this natural phenomenon: Eve was cursed with it; it’s still called the curse; a bleeding woman is unclean, etc. One must ask themselves, why? If the overarching purpose of a species is its very survival, then procreation is of paramount importance. What is the most obvious sign that an individual is a viable participant in procreation: menstruation. Logically it should be celebrated, not be portrayed as something dirty or disgusting. Yet another reason for misogyny: as women we have nothing to PROVE, our womanhood is normal and natural and not an artificial construct, constantly being assailed or called into question. The insecurity this natural occurrence causes in men in general (the patriarchy) is then projected upon women to distract us from their (the menz) insecurity. We have to be constantly bombarded with messages that will convince us that the natural is the abnormal and the unnatural is the normal.
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Violet says:
Andi, the thing is, on feminist blogs we’ve pretty much been there and done that, about a hundred billion times. You can’t have a conversation about patriarchy without a guy showing up to police your language, insist that you clarify that you’re not talking about HIM, provide reassurance that you know not all men are bad, etc. Every single time. Every single blog. It’s difficult to have a conversation when you have to keep reassuring the odd guy who strays in that you’re not going to cut his dick off. This is why so many feminist bloggers simply ban men from commenting. Not because they have any particular animosity towards men, but because of the constant thread derailments.
Alternatively, some feminist bloggers have tried the equivalent of posting signs: “We do not hate all men. We’re sure you’re a wonderful guy. We’re talking about ‘men’ as a class within the patriarchal system, or generally about male-associated behavior. Relax.” But it doesn’t necessarily help.
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Andi says:
I get it. I appreciate it. I plan to bathe in it.
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Swannie says:
Menarche is celebrated , in many cultures , and modern women have adopted many different means of clebrating menarche for their daughters to offset the detrimental mesasge that patriarchy sends regarding the onset of “the curse”, that vestige from tribal taboos.
In some cultures a new woman was isolated at the time of menarche because of her increase in POWER , so it was not always a curse or taboo at all. -
Violet says:
What really defines manhood? Why must men “prove” their manhood?
The constructedness of masculinity is an interesting problem. It seems ubiquitous in human cultures. The need to “prove” oneself a man is found all over the world, including in non-patriarchal societies where women have very high status. It does seem as if biology gives girls an obvious rite of passage with menarche, while masculinity is something that has to be artifically created. Psychologists have also speculated — and it’s pure speculation — that the fact that males are a different sex from their mother contributes to the alienated quality of masculinity.
I can’t think of a culture where girls have to go through some ordeal to prove themselves a woman, nor where a woman’s basic womanhood rests on her performance of some norm. A woman is a woman. A man, though, has to create himself.
The irony for women, though, is that in a highly male-dominated society, the social norms governing women’s behavior are usually extremely demanding. She’s a woman by nature — nothing to prove there — but is she a good woman? That’s a whole nother kettle of fish.
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Lorenzo says:
Straight men are as you say. Gay men have all these body image issues …
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Violet says:
In some cultures a new woman was isolated at the time of menarche because of her increase in POWER , so it was not always a curse or taboo at all.
Yep, menarche is a huge blessing in many cultures where women have high status. In fact, in some cultures the rite of puberty for males is clearly a kind of echo of menarche: circumcision, for example, which causes males to bleed too.
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Lorenzo says:
So, I guess the issue is wanting male approval …
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Swannie says:
Does anyone remember “yahoogroups”
I belonged to a group called
moontime · The Menstrual Hut, celebrate thy womanhood
and we covered so many issues regarding women and the Moon …discussions went on for years.. it was lovely … I see now that group has had no activity since 2007 sigh..PMS = POWER MOON SYNDROME
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FLAConnie says:
I realize that menarche was celebrated in many cultures and still is in some. However, I don’t think the average person – especially in western societies – is aware of this. I remember as a young woman being embarrassed about having my period. Until discovering feminism in college, my attitude was fear that “the boyz” would know! Over 40 years later I can still recall how humiliated I felt when my mother sent my older brother to the store to buy tampons for me. With the advent of advertising feminine products on TV, both women and men are getting the message that women are nasty, dirty and smelly because we bleed. And now the new ones: why have 12 periods a year, take a pill and make it go away. Better living through chemistry! Got something WRONG with you, we have meds for that. Just saying…….
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Swannie says:
Alternatively, some feminist bloggers have tried the equivalent of posting signs: “We do not hate all men. We’re sure you’re a wonderful guy. We’re talking about ‘men’ as a class within the patriarchal system, or generally about male-associated behavior. Relax.” But it doesn’t necessarily help.
Well, so many people , not just men , do not get, or have not yet arrived at the place where the system of patriarchy is discussed as a cultural phenom or ideology, or even a societal structure , separate and apart from regard for men , as a group or individuals . Sometimes just a mention of the dread word… patriarchy… can cause misunderstandings that may or may not require sorting out , depending on the blog or blogger , and it can be tiresome to have to explain everytime you use that word as well .
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Swannie says:
flaconnie,
Turning around the modern taboos toward womens physiology and functions , is one of the goals not yet achieved by modern feminism . I mean we could scare the hell out of a portion of society by calling the newest wave of feminism the RED WAVE and keep that uppermost in the literature, That might offset some of the impugning advertising targeting women in the video up top , but probably not.
Does anyone else find it ironic that while we have all this push toward green living and revering mother nature , we still see ads on tv with “mother nature” showing up carrying a red box with a ribbon around it , snarking about how she is going to ruin your fun.. and young women running like hell to avoid and outwit her? After they buy the product of course… -
FLAConnie says:
Through my eyes, at least, Mother Nature and/or Nature in general has almost always been portrayed as the enemy. How many “classics” were based on the theme of Man versus Nature? Here in Florida the Army Corps of Engineers controlled nature by redirecting the Kissimmee River and trying to “dry out” the Everglades. Now we’re spending millions and millions of dollars to restore the Kissimmee River basin to its natural course and save what little is left of the Everglades.
Overcoming of nature has, until recently, been seen as a noble cause by the vast majority. So, no I don’t see the Tampax/Evil Mother Nature commercials as ironic but just more of the same. I also see the goal of Man to triumph over Nature is also part of the goal of Patriarchy’s triumph over Woman (Nature). And, you may be too young to remember the Imperial magarine commercial of “It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature” that ran, I believe, in the 1970s.
Man vs Nature can also be seen in the conversion to Christianity of indigenous peoples or the extermination (or near extermination) of Native Peoples because they lived in harmony with nature, so they were – naturally – bad, oh my!
No other species on the planet is at war with the natural world or rejects their place in the web of life. IMHO, Patriarchy and its ensuing religions have established humans A PART FROM not A PART OF Nature.
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yttik says:
About turning 40, honestly something really does happen to women. I’m sure the age varies among individuals, but there really is a shift that occurs as you get older. There are some studies that suggest oxytocin levels drop, oxytocin being the hormone that among other things, makes you want to pair bond. Loosely translated it helps you want to accommodate a partner, to make yourself appealing. It also makes us able to tolerate annoying behavior, like a crying infant, LOL, or a demanding man.
There is no escape from the patriarchy, no matter what age you are. But I would never want to go thru my 20′s-30′s again, because that was when I actually cared about what people thought about me, about what I said or how I looked or how I was perceived. It was all about pleasing others and meeting expectations, especially male expectations.
I have a friend who is 72 and widowed for many years. My husband always teases her about getting a boyfriend and she flat out tells him she can’t think of anything more horrifying then having to care about what a man thinks and wants.
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tinfoil hattie says:
You can’t have a conversation about patriarchy without a guy showing up to police your language, insist that you clarify that you’re not talking about HIM, provide reassurance that you know not all men are bad, etc. Every single time. Every single blog.
And, in my judgment, that is trolling. I know myiqx2 comments here frequently, and by now he should know this is a feminist blog. I have gone round and round with him many times about whether or not something is sexist. He’s always right, you know.
I am tired of having to worry about what men think. Janis put it well, as did Mari. Brilliant summations. Don’t come here and tell me men don’t hate me. I love this! Men rape, kill, beat, exploit, harass, and walk all over women as a matter of course, yet it’s always “feminists hate men.” See how that works?
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Violet says:
yttik, for me it was just about right at age 40. It was amazing how much stuff suddenly dropped away. And my mother! She was like, “oh thank god, you’re a person now, I can talk to you.”
I mean, I was pretty reasonable before, and I’ve always been a feminist, but yes — suddenly I just had zero tolerance for twisting myself into shape for a man.
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SweetSue says:
Andi says:
…Too often, young women accept these labels (worthless, slut, dyke, bitch) as their own self
Time and effort, in my opinion, is better spent providing more healthy images for young women to
For us older self doubting and generally confused chicks – forget about it. We’re screwed. Let’s just work on the next batchI’ve re-read Naomi Wolf’s “The Beauty Myth” and it’s as true and germane as it was nearly twenty years ago.
In fact, with the rise of TMZ, Perez Hilton, The Real Housewives of Wherever, Keeping up with the Kardashians, reality TV in general, the messages from men(with the assistance of some women) to women about women are worse, more demeaning and harmful than they were thirty or forty years ago. -
Branjor says:
***Well, so many people , not just men , do not get, or have not yet arrived at the place where the system of patriarchy is discussed as a cultural phenom or ideology, or even a societal structure , separate and apart from regard for men , as a group or individuals.***
Patriarchy is not a “cultural phenom, ideology or societal structure separate and apart from regard for men as a group or individuals.” Men, individually and as a group, worked d*mn hard to establish it and they are working just as hard to maintain it here and now today.
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Sis says:
When you get older yet though yttik, you have the grandmother stereotype. I refuse to ‘dote’ over children, or offer to help my younger friends with theirs, or be called a grandmother ie) the group that raises money for schools in some third world country (completely ignoring the third wold country right here another day another story). You cannot imagine *younger you here* how you have to fight against this. It originates with patriarchy, but of course, it’s the other women who bear down on you when you protest this. You are isolated by them, cut out. The narrow, narrow role society allows older women. And the virtual ‘stoning’ if you do not comply. But of course, this is part and parcel of not being welcome with couples either, if you are a single woman and especially if you are a good looking single woman.
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leis says:
Well I am celebrating my 40th year on the planet today! And I am trying to nurse my head from having had one too many pomegranate martinis last night. My husband threw a surprise party last night at a local restaurant and invited our friends. Most of our friends are in couples, but my closest, dearest friend, for 20 years, is single. Never married, no kids. And of course as the evening progresses everybody starts to discuss fixing her up with their divorced friends. She is always uncomfortable when the conversation turns to her singlehood, not because she is uncomfortable being single but because people unwittingly make her feel like she MUST want to be in a relationship or there must be something wrong with her. And these people have known her for years and they can’t resist trying to figure out what her problem is. The total kick in the pants was after she left, they start questioning me. “I don’t understand;she’s attractive why doesn’t she have a man?” To which I reply she is content. If she met a guy that she had interest in she would pursue a relationship, but she is happy as things stand. People cannot conceive that a woman can have a fulfilling happy life and not be with a guy. If I get frustrated with them, I can’t imagine how much it must piss her off to have to constantly explain her existence. But, I am looking forward to putting people pleasing behind me if that is what comes with being forty. Oh and does anyone know a good hangover remedy?
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seattlegal says:
FLAConnie post #47 says:
If only the myth of “the DICK is the measure of the man” could be dispelled. We’ve had the discussion before that bigger is not always better, especially if it’s too big! It can be like trying to get a size 10 foot into a size 7 shoe.
What really defines manhood? Why must men “prove” their manhood? I think because there is no NATURAL rite of passage into manhood, only societal constructs, like: a barmitzvah for passage from boyhood to manhood in the Jewish faith; the killing of a lion for the Masai males; fathers taking their son hunting for the first time or to a hooker to get him laid.
Violet post #51 says:
I can’t think of a culture where girls have to go through some ordeal to prove themselves a woman, nor where a woman’s basic womanhood rests on her performance of some norm. A woman is a woman. A man, though, has to create himself.Actually, imo, what makes a man a man is when he masters himself. This is not achieved by the shadow projection pretense of mastering others. That’s just too easy. Mastering oneself can be simple or difficult, but just figuring this out can be the most difficult part of it all.
{Besides, self-control is just so damned sexy.}
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Honora says:
My mom just turned 80 and is wonderfully healthy and vibrant. She was complaining the other day that people are starting to talk to her as if she were a baby. They call her Dearie or Hon and talk slowly to her. She says that it makes her furious. She’s from The Bronx, so that may explain her reaction, but she says that they do not do the same to men.
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seattlegal says:
Happy 40th, leis.
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Sis says:
Having children is pretty much of an ordeal.
But menstruation, yes what should be celebrated is shamed. And then when it ends, more shame. We’re useless. We just can’t get it right, us women.
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SweetSue says:
Happy Birthday, leis. Take two aspirin with some orange juice and go back to bed.
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Violet says:
Happy Birthday, leis! 40 is a great birthday. I should bake you a cake.
Hangover: drink a lot of water. And go back to bed.
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Mari says:
Of course women shouldn’t feel embarassed (and shouldn’t be made to feel embarassed) because they have periods, but what’s wrong with not wanting to have them in the first place? Periods are painful, uncomfortable and completely useless and counterproductive to all the women who don’t want to bear children. A woman shouldn’t need to love having periods or think of herself as a future mother or anything else that’s related to female body biology. And if there was a pill that could stop periods with little to no side effects I fail to see how that wouldn’t be a good thing for a lot of women.
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leis says:
Thanks, seattlegal. Forty is a good round number, but I will admit I am nervous about my first mammogram.
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Mari says:
Happy birthday, leis! 40 is a nice age, I think. I know I can’t wait to get out of the twenties :)
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leis says:
Thanks Violet, SweetSue and Mari. Actually, my boys made me a birthday cake and even put 40 candles on it. You should see what a birthday cake with 40 lit candles looks like! I’m going to tell my family the doctor told me to go back to bed.
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Sis says:
A friend recently entered a ‘seniors care centre’. Her family applied to many before they found one that would accept her, had space for her. I helped with the forms. For all of them, she had to have a doctor’s signature saying that she was “compliant”. Just pause on that for a minute.
There are about 300 residents, about five of them men. The pressure to conform is unbelievable. The talk is only, and always, exaggerations of their children’s achievments, the important people they once knew, their former status in x community. Some women are cut off because they don’t meet the criteria. The gossip and cruelty rivals junior high. I felt sick watching this. So it doesn’t stop at 40. And if you don’t comply, where will you go when you are 70, or 80 and you are not able to care for yourself, and your family can’t look after you? You’ll go to this insane girl’s school atmosphere.
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Sis says:
leis why are you having a mammogram? Unless you have reason to believe you might have breast cancer there’s no good reason to do that. You unnecessarily subject yourself to carcinogenic radiation, and risk being diagnosed when there is no cancer. Mammograms are not innocent.
The British Medical Journal
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content.....09_1/b2587
Conclusion
We estimated 52% overdiagnosis of breast cancer in a population offered organised mammography screening—that is, one in three breast cancers is overdiagnosed. -
Swannie says:
Mari says:
Of course women shouldn’t feel embarassed (and shouldn’t be made to feel embarassed) because they have periods, but what’s wrong with not wanting to have them in the first place? Periods are painful, uncomfortable and completely useless and counterproductive to all the women who don’t want to bear children. A woman shouldn’t need to love having periods or think of herself as a future mother or anything else that’s related to female body biology. And if there was a pill that could stop periods with little to no side effects I fail to see how that wouldn’t be a good thing for a lot of women.
I would not invalidate your view , experience , or pain for anything, and I have had my share of staying in bed once a month but having had this discussion before with many women , I just want to share that there is an entire school of thought that puts forth the premise that mestruation is difficult or more difficult than it needs to be because women have been taught that it must be so .
That is not to make the person having pain the problem either , but my own experience was changed with a change of perspective , and for the better . -
Sis says:
“And if there was a pill that could stop periods with little to no side effects I fail to see how that wouldn’t be a good thing for a lot of women.”
There isn’t.
http://www.cwhn.ca/network-reseau/7-1/7-1pg3.html
For example, some are urging intervention when menstruation begins at a young age, arguing that hormonal manipulations of young girls to create “mock” pregnancy states might be a way of lowering some potential risks for the later development of breast cancer. Many others are arguing to eliminate periods altogether, pointing out that regular periods “cause” many women distress and might even “cause” cancers later in life. Suddenly, or maybe not so suddenly, having periods is — or at least is made to seem — not “natural” and a possible “cause” of later problems. And pills to “fix” women’s cycles are being marketed yet again.
Of most interest here is that these views of menstruation as a causal factor for disease only began to gain currency when drug companies had already prepared a pharmaceutical response. Thus, hormonal cocktails probably first developed to manage women’s cycles when they were undergoing fertility treatment may be finding new uses to manipulate young pre-teens; birth control pills (e.g., Seasonale) developed in efforts to provide contraception at the lowest possible doses seem to be finding expanded use as a “period-free” pill.
Clearly, these are experimental uses of hormones and birth control pills, uses that lack any justification. There are no data to indicate the safety of exposing healthy girls to “hormonal pregnancies” or women to long-term menstrual suppression. Women who go these routes are, in fact, participating in uncontrolled experiments. Why offer to “fix” something that isn’t broken?
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gxm17 says:
m Andrea @ #10, thanks for the link. I’ve pre-order their book. There is no doubt that the misogyny that pervades religious doctrine is responsible for maintaining the oppression and denigration of women across the globe. I can’t wait to read their arguments.
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Swannie says:
BTW
Shameless plug warning for the Dianic or otherwise wiccan/pagans or any woman , reallyAn interview I did in two parts with Z BUDAPEST from january 2008
http://goddessradio.podomatic......3_13-08_00
http://goddessradio.podomatic......8_20-08_00
Swan On Air with Zsuzsanna Budapest
Conversation with Z Budapest..
To hear her is to hear the voices of our foremothers echoing down the halls of history , while bringing the future to a crystal vision . She brings her book WOMENS MYSTERIES to life for us ,and we share in her energy . Z brings us along on her path and journey ; and walks with us for a while on our path. With humor, wit ,wisdom,unabashed bawd and common sense , we see from behind her eyes and feel her warm presence .( if this is inappropriate just feel free to delete it )
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Mari says:
re: Swannie #79
This isn’t about my experience (mine aren’t anything out of the ordinary, and I’ve been taught the exact opposite of what you mentioned). I’ve found that for most women having periods is simply more difficult than not having them, whether they’re very painful or only a minor annoyance. My point is that regardless of what they’re like for her, a woman should be allowed to not like periods (or want a pill that got rid of them) without having to justify it or feel that she’s doing or thinking something wrong.
re: Sis #80
Precisely, that’s why I said “if”. IF there was such a thing there shouldn’t be anything wrong with a woman using it or wanting to.
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gxm17 says:
I love Mitchell and Webb. Great satire! I agree with much of the sentiment here. But we’re overlooking all those ads for “male enhancement” and hair treatments. I think men have a lot of self doubt, they’ve just been programmed to keep it a secret. And because of all that repression the self-doubt can leak out in very ugly misogynistic ways.
It’s interesting that the ads for male “improvement” are usually under the radar too, running late at night, early in the morning or on some low traffic cable station. Whereas the ads directed towards women always seem to be front and center. It’s like they’re selling more than just a product, they’re selling a cultural bridle. A woman’s self perception must be restrained and redirected in a very public, often humiliating, way. It’s just one more way to keep us divided, keep us in line, and keep us down.
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yttik says:
Agreed Sis, about the dangers of trying to “cure” menstruation. What’s always so special about the patriarchy though, is that there can be two opposing and contradictory expectations at the same time. Women are supposed to “have a happy period” and fly about the room on a maxi pad. At the same time we’re supposed to take our Seasonale or whatever so we can be cured of “the curse”. If you think about it, these two concepts feed each other. If you aren’t wearing white and dancing in field of flowers full of joy, than obviously there’s something wrong with you and you need to stop having periods.
I hate that line, “have a happy period.” A bunch of male CEO’s sitting in a room dreaming that one up really galls me.
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Swannie says:
Mari… I totally get what you are saying , and for you and I , wellwe have moved beyond the messages targeted to make women believe one thing or another , but I am saying if we change that message, we may very well change the experience for many women , I believe this to be true because I have worked with so many adolescents , and given them an opportunity to have a different experience.. e celebratory experience can be very different than a miserable one, especially for someone at menarche.
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Mari says:
re: Swannie #85
Yeah, I completely agree on not telling girls to feel horrible about it or saying things that make it harder for them. I just wanted to add that telling them it’s something good that should be celebrated can also backfire, by making a lot of girls feel bad when they don’t find it a pleasant or desirable experience (i.e. they can feel that they’re not acting the way a woman should by not being happy about it)
Honestly, I’m not sure what the best message would be, but my experience is limited to my own and talking to teenage girls when I was that age and the most common attitude was “my mom tells me it’s not a big deal but IT IS FOR ME”.
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Swannie says:
Mari, re #87
…that is where the traditions from mother to daughter and women to women come in;.. I think, and not allowing the bullshit from adverttising to lead their ideas ..
Then again. where do you get the flying maxi pads ?? and do you have to have a period to have one ….;) I want one for short trips to the grocery store and stuff … -
Honora says:
Getting your period is like having to pee or eat, it is simply part of life for the majority of the earth’s people. If there was a safe pill to take to stop your period, I would see nothing wrong with taking it. Women can like or hate their periods and still be women. What I love are the Midol commercials that advertise that you should take the pill ‘before, during and after your period’. In other words take the pill everyday of your life!!!
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leis says:
Sis – It has always been assumed at 40 I would get my baseline. When I went in for my annual my gynecologist had the prescription for mammogram filled out before I even got to her office. She didn’t even discuss it, she just said here it is and here is a list of places to go. I have never even heard of harmless cancers, but that link was enlightening. I do not have a family history of breast cancer, but my husband’s mother was diagnosed at 45 and battled it for many years before she finally succumbed. He is a wreck and honest to god, if I said I wasn’t going to get a mammogram, he would have a breakdown. He is that fearful. All of my girlfriends had theirs at 40, too and the first thing I hear when my 40th is brought up is “oh you’ll get your first mammogram now.” But thanks for the link, it has given me pause and something to consider. I haven’t made my appointment yet, because I think I have my own fears due to my mother-in-law.
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Mari says:
re: Swannie #88
Agreed on advertising. Best advice that I found was for everyone to just stop watching TV and get info from the Net and reliable friends :) (though of course, even that isn’t enough to avoid certain ads)
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Madame Ovary says:
Where is any acknowledgement that females not only share in and pass along, but create body-size hatred? This self-congratulatory discussion entirely leaves out that the beauty industry is now, and has been for some time, a majority female business; women are editors-in-chief and publishers of all the beauty rags, women fashion and picture editors pick out the anorexic models for photo spreads, the most powerful person in fashion is frosty icepick-skinny Anna Wintour. Women have told each other to diet since Jean Nidetch, women write exercise books and diet books, feminist icon Jane Fonda dominated aerobics and made women paranoid about the size of their behinds for more than a decade.
It’s time for “feminists” to recognize the power shift that has occurred in the past twenty-five years; women are now determinants in how messages about body image are created. And now that they are in power in this business, we are discovering that women are as culpable, corruptible, and craven, as men: making us feel bad about ourselves is where the money is.
So for the past quarter-century, women have been just as complicit in shaming women for their bodies as men, all in pursuit of the almighty dollar. I suppose it has something to do with the two genders being united under the banner “human.”
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Violet says:
Where is any acknowledgement that females not only share in and pass along, but create body-size hatred?
It’s implicit in the understanding of patriarchy. “Feminists” (why the scare quotes?) know that patriarchy isn’t a group of men, but a social system. Women are participants in the system, and in fact are typically the front-line enforcers of the rules. We’re all trained in it from birth.
If you were a “feminist” you’d know that.
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Hammer of the Dyke says:
Male policing and control of women’s appearance is, of course, bound up with the establishment of patriarchy and men’s attempts at self-deification. Men are pure and holy vs. women are polluting and should be excluded – whether by an overheated, portable, black tent or by shaming and by law. Archeological/anthropological evidence shows that the bodies of women were once revered, even though this evidence is dismissed as paleolithic porn. Many of the foundation myths of so-called civilization tell of a male upstart defiling, destroying and using the body of the goddess for his own perverted ends in order to deify himself. It seems that men so long for a separation from nature that they are willing to glorify its destruction. Their attitudes are, in many respects, antithetical to life itself. Of course, when inconvenient facts are pointed out, men resort to projection: “You hate men!”
That said, I do believe that men are falling victim to their ever-devouring corporate machine. It has been decided that there is money to be made from the promotion of male insecurity and of increased narcissism. Nonetheless, men are allowed to shrug it all off as a badge of manliness. “I’m just not into all that metrosexual stuff,” gives them a pass. There is no policing or punishment, and indeed, men are simply not held to the impossibly stringent, brutal standards required of women. We still have the 60 year old Hollywood male paired with the 25 year old female side-kick. If policing, in response to financial dictates, ever does occur, it will be men who carry it out upon other men – in some official capacity, like sumptuary laws. Still, I don’t see it as very likely that men will be turned from their civilization’s raison d’etre: control, domination and seclusion of women.
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Sis says:
Sis – It has always been assumed at 40 I would get my baseline. When I went in for my annual my gynecologist had the prescription for mammogram filled out before I even got to her office. She didn’t even discuss it, she just said here it is and here is a list of places to go.
##
They are all banking a lot of money off our fear. This is marketing, not science.
The only feminist breast cancer organization:
http://bcaction.org/index.php?page=mammograms -
tinfoil hattie says:
women are editors-in-chief and publishers of all the beauty rags,
Au contraire. Most of the publishers, i.e., holders of the purse strings, are men.
Most women’s fashions are designed by men.
And all women collude in patriarchy. We don’t have a choice. That’s why it’s a patriarchy.
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Alison says:
Thanks, Sis.
I’m 39 and I’ve been avoiding the whole mammogram issue. I’ll check out the site you linked to.
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literary_rat says:
long-time lurker, first-time commenter here…
Something the comments, especially, made me think of is the fact that we really have no idea, in this culture, what women are supposed to look like. Because on TV and even to a great degree out in public, you just don’t see women who aren’t taking great pains to shave and pluck and squeeze and dye all of their so-called ‘flaws’ away. It’s so prevalent that women start to think of their own natural bodies as hideous and deformed. We don’t even need to be told this directly; just the deluge of ‘beautiful women’ photographs that look drastically different from how any woman–even a beautiful woman–actually looks without all the additives.
As far as the fact that women more or less run the beauty industry and yet things aren’t getting any better–I think it’s a combination of two things. First of all, we live in a patriarchal society and women are just as much a product of that society as men. Second, though, is the fact that I think a lot of women are almost afraid to let the younger generations ‘get away with’ not having to deal with freakish beauty constraints. It’s the same idea that makes diet fanatics hate people who don’t diet, the notion that ‘I had to do it, so you have to do it too or I’m going to have to accept that it was all for nothing.’ For a person who’s dedicated her life to the pursuit of this ideal, the idea that all that effort and pain was totally pointless is unspeakable.
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Kiuku says:
Madam Ovary it is there we just don’t blame women. We know better than to blame women. And you know women work in those industries because they accept women, and advance women. Women can be writers, but they have to write columns about women’s issues, and fashion.
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leis says:
Sis -thanks for the Breast Cancer Action information. What a great website. That is going into my bookmarks and I will be passing it on to all of my friends.
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Sis says:
You’re welcome. BCA is a great site. It was started by women who had breast cancer and who felt the existing organizations worked for the breast cancer “industry”, not for women.
There are a couple more FAQs of importance there. Hope you do read through and pass it on.
Another good source on women’s health issues. Funded by Health Canada, headed by the same epidemiologist who wrote the previously linked article. http://www.whp-apsf.ca/
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Michele Braa-heidner says:
When I was a child growing into my pre-teen years, I knew inherently that there was something wrong with me, that there was something missing. At the time, I didn’t understand intellectually any of it but it was a feeling deep inside that, because I wasn’t a boy, I was flawed. Then when I bloomed into a pretty young woman, I began getting more and more attention from boys and men. This brought in a whole new realm for me. When I had boys interested in me, I felt more important through osmosis.
I think this is a huge issue in our society right now with young girls. I’ve seen too many episodes of Dr. Phil talking about female low self esteem and how it’s related to their relationship or lack of relationship with their fathers. This may be a superficial part of it, in that we are talking about father patriarchy, but it doesn’t end or start with our own fathers, it’s much deeper than that. Girls who are socialized in patriarchy are brainwashed into believing that the only way they can have power or be good enough, is through proximity with men.
This is one of the reasons patriarchy is so successful in keeping women enslaved. It ensures that even women will defend men and patriarchy or at least deny that there is a problem. If women were to admit the truth, their source of “pseudo” power would be jeopardized. If women were stripped of this pseudo power, they would then have to take a hard look at themselves and would ultimately realize their error. They would then be left with an emptiness that is truly painful.
I know for me, when I got up there in age and my good looks began to fade, I had to deal with myself (or lack of) and it wasn’t pretty (no pun intended!). I am now much wiser and I feel a sense of power within me that I have never known before; however, even with the knowing, it still is very difficult to reside in a society that doesn’t respect women. The saying “ignorance is bliss” comes to mind here but ultimately for women “knowledge is power”.
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Bella Donna says:
You know, I was thinking about Iran the other day, and all of our sisters in middle-eastern countries.
I was thinking how terrific it would be, if every year for one month, women from all “free” countries would don head coverings, to be with our sisters in spirit.
Then I realized that no woman in our society is expected to go out without at least 2 hours of work put into her hair, her makeup. That no female politician would go on stage at any event without her hair and makeup fully done.
As if having a pimple or a gray hair or frizzy hair is the height of impropriety, something that only low-class slackers have.
Unless you are a man, of course.
Then I wondered if we could ever convince girls and women in any western country to spend a month without makeup or hair products. To “celebrate” how “free” they are.
I think it could be a huge wake-up call for many women who really don’t realize how oppressive the status quo is.
As for periods, I don’t think my biggest issue was the “gross” factor, although I had 2 teenage brothers who seemed to think menstruation was the grossest thing in the world.
I think the downfall of my emotional health occurred during my second period, after the “Woo, I’m a Woman Now” phase of the first.
I was sitting outside during youth group, watching the guys play basketball, when suddenly I realized that every month for the rest of my freaking life (when you are 12, 60 is the same thing as dead)I was going to be bleeding from the crotch and in a decent amount of discomfort, all so that when I got old enough, if I wasn’t deemed “unacceptable” I could wed, and bear babies for, one of the jocks now merrily leaping about on the basketball court, unencumbered by any similar discomfort, and that if I did attain the peak of woman-hood (having a child) I would also be undergoing extreme discomfort, while whatever man I was attached to would still have no clue whatsoever about anything beyond his own experience.
My parents never figured out the exact day, but they point to some time in my early adolescence as “the time when everything went to hell”
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Mari says:
re: Michele #102
Fake power vs real power, that’s a great way to put it! Women are taught to only want fake power, the kind a second class can only get by accepting the premise that the patriarchy is normal and unchangeable. To start an actual movement toward a non-sexist society we need women, and especially girls, to understand what the patriarchy is and what real power is like, i.e. the power a person has in their own right without having to kowtow to the patriarchy. But of course it’s hard for them to see that power as real when it’s not recognized as such by most people.
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Mari says:
re: Bella #103
That’s a great idea. Maybe that’s where “role models” come in. Maybe if some respectable/admirable/powerful/popular women were to stop wearing make-up, etc that would tell girls that that’s ok. Of course by doing that, those women would be taking quite a risk with their careers.
And re: periods, that was also pretty much my own reaction to getting them (with added “but I’ll never want kids so why can’t I just opt out of having periods and breasts?”)
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Branjor says:
***Maybe if some respectable/admirable/powerful/popular women were to stop wearing make-up, etc that would tell girls that that’s ok.***
That would be us.
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Andi says:
If you tell a girl that her menstruation is some spiritual entry into womanhood, aren’t you reaffirming that her identity and worth are related to making babies?
And, about makeup, I wear the stuff about once a year to remind myself why I don’t wear it. But, I also know that girls DO like to adorn themselves, and women like to look good. I think we do a disservice to women if we say that their very real desire to be attractive is some form of slavery they should want to be free of. You may as well tell an artist that her paint brush is a chain of servitude.
The problem isn’t that women want to look attractive.
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Andi says:
“That would be us.”
Right on! I do hope that my lack of adornment is a demonstration to those girls who have no desire to go the way of makeup and frills… But, it’s easy for me to say that, since I am fairly good looking anyway. I have no desire to dissuade girls from adorning themselves if that is where they find a sense of self-wonder.
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Mari says:
re: Andi
Like with every other thing that’s considered “feminine”, make-up itself isn’t the problem, the problem is that there’s pressure on women, and only women, to wear it (and that women are taught to think that they should want to). How many of the women who wear make-up would be wearing it if they hadn’t been taught they should, or thought badly of when they refused, or taught that it makes them beautiful and because they’re women they should obviously want/try to be beautiful? Some would, sure, but many wouldn’t. Not to mention that in a non-sexist society there would be about as many men as women wearing make-up, styling their hair, wearing pretty but uncomfortable clothes, removing their body hair and every other thing that the patriarchy claims women and only women naturally want to do.
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Monchichipox says:
I call it the Everybody Loves Raymond syndrome.
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Andi says:
Mari,
“How many of the women who wear make-up would be wearing it if they hadn’t been taught they should..”
I have no idea, but I do know that Russian women celebrated their freedom from Communism by buying makeup and colorful clothing.
“Like with every other thing that’s considered “feminine”, make-up itself isn’t the problem, the problem is that there’s pressure on women, and only women, to wear it…”
But, I am addressing the idea that we need a month of freedom from makeup to make a point. It is the other extreme, and tells women that their attractiveness is meaningless and of no value.
Looks certainly do matter to many women, for the sake of art itself. I, myself, truly enjoy watching a beautiful woman interact with society. Make-up can, and often does, accentuate that beauty.
I think I am having an instinctual reaction against any idea that tells women that WE (as women) know what is best for other women.
It’s a bit funny since I wear no makeup or jewelry, and 99% of the time I am wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
“Not to mention that in a non-sexist society there would be about as many men as women wearing make-up…”
If men want to adorn themselves and express their artistic tendency through their own attractiveness, but feel oppressed by our society… that’s their problem. I really could care less.
Andi
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Mari says:
re: Andi #111
In most places women already know that it’s ok to wear make-up and make themselves more beautiful. NO ONE here is arguing that they shouldn’t be able to, or that make-up can’t be artistic or beautiful or whatever. The point is that they should know that it’s also ok NOT TO, which hasn’t yet happened and is therefore the actual problem.
Also, that last part wasn’t about men being oppressed, it was part of what I said about how what people are told they should want can affect what they think they want, so gender stereotypes can’t be used as a reason to perpetuate the same gender stereotypes.
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Sis says:
Oh c’mon. Every culture, all the ancient peoples, decorated themselves. They just didn’t buy stuff, they scarified, ground dyes and roots to rub them on and in. Every species grooms. When an animal stops grooming itself, it’s sick. It’s dying. We’ve just warped it somewhat to all the time, only women. At least our generation and preceding has warped it. The younger generation, the teens, both sexes do it, are flagrant with it, flaunting it. I love it.
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Andi says:
I know, Mari. I suppose we have no argument. I just want to make sure we don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I’ve seen too many destructive over-reactions to assume that everybody understands that all extremes are dangerous.
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Mari says:
The whole point is that it doesn’t matter what people do or don’t or have done in terms of make-up etc, it matters that they should have a choice and not be pressured in any way. And that pressuring only one half of the population into making themselves attractive or feeling like they should is sexist.
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Alison says:
Ugh. I honestly would love to have the time to dress well, wear make up and blow dry my hair. I don’t want fake boobs and I don’t need to get rid of every fat cell on my thighs. It’s very possible to have a healthy relationship with our bodies and our beauty.
Sis, I think for many teen girls who “flaunt” their beauty, it is not a healthy relationship with their bodies. Their main worth becomes looking beautiful for the approval of males and thus this also gives them approval from other females. I really feel it is getting worse and worse for the young. This also merges with sex. I am hardly anti-sex but I can’t tell you how many promiscuous friends I had in college who didn’t like sex but “wanted to be liked”. I fear for my little girl.
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Mari says:
re: Andi #114
Yeah, I get that, I’m just not seeing anyone here who’s actually saying that women shouldn’t be allowed to like make-up or anything else that’s considered feminine. Most people tend to agree that women have that right, the opposite tends to be what most people have trouble with.
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gxm17 says:
Most women’s fashions are designed by men.
Many years ago I heard an interesting theory regarding the cultural introduction of the tall, thin, no curves model ideal. It was posited that because so many gay men run the fashion industry, they were choosing models with a tall, boyish build that fit their standards of (male) beauty. I’ve always thought that was a pretty good point.
…just the deluge of ‘beautiful women’ photographs that look drastically different from how any woman–even a beautiful woman–actually looks without all the additives.
And consider that all those additives (and retouching) make the women look like nonhuman androids which, IMO, perpetuates the idea of women as easily disposable merchandise.
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Sis says:
Yes, I agree Alison. I’m talking about the youth who are spiking and colouring their hair, piercing, painting and tatooing “scar” designs mimicking Maori and aboriginal tatoos, doing amazing inventive things with clothing, jewellery. I love to see them being so inventive. It’s art as far as I’m concerned.
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Alison says:
Hi Sis,
Oh, I love that, too! I mistakenly thought you were referring to tween and Disney culture. Last night while watching Disney, husband and I were bemoaning that the teens on the show dress like 29 year old fashionistas who work at Conde Naste. Ugh.
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Bella Donna says:
I don’t want to dictate or legislate to any woman what she should or should not be allowed to wear.
I think that for many women spending a month or a week or even a day out in society without makeup and “done” hair would be a wake up call to how “optional” our beauty regimens have become.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with adorning one’s self, but I don’t think it should be a requirement.
I have bad skin. Terrible skin, it’s a genetic disorder that didn’t develop until my teens.
From 14 to 16 I couldn’t go out in public without strange looks, people asking what was wrong with my legs, just general pressure on top of the already bad feeling I was already having.
I’ve spent the last 10 years only ever wearing long sleeves and long pants.
Even in August. I live in Eastern Washington where summer temperatures are often above 80′s form July to August. I had my friends ask why I never showed any skin. Girlfriends would buy me skirts. My boyfriend complained constantly that I never showed my legs. Because he was a “leg man.”
This year, I said “forget it.” I’m wearing short sleeves and capri pants and skirts, and loving it.
Except for the cat calls from jerks whenever I dare to walk down a public sidewalk.
Beauty is not an option in our culture.
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m Andrea says:
I have never seen a woman I would consider ugly, though I did meet a woman I thought had the “plainest” features I had ever seen. I would just stare at her as we were talking and couldn’t get over how though there was nothing wrong with any of her features, she was still the plainest woman I had ever seen. Anyway, we got to be good friends. She was truly a beautiful person on the inside.
And one day I was looking at her and thought my god she’s beautiful. Now I have no idea how I could have ever thought her “plain”.
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Michele Braa-Heidner says:
#107 Andi: “If you tell a girl that her menstruation is some spiritual entry into womanhood, aren’t you reaffirming that her identity and worth are related to making babies?”
I don’t think so. The fact is, women menstruate and are able to bear children. This is an aspect of being female that we should never try to deny or hide. If we deny it or try to hide it, patriarchy wins in making us think that if we want to be equal to men, we have to get rid of what makes us women. Instead we need to celebrate what it is to be female because being female is valid and important. If we celebrate these stages in a females life, we begin to empower women and to represent a sex that has never been represented in patriarchy. Then maybe, just maybe, girls will begin to feel empowered.
#116 Alison: I agree that sex for most girls is just an attempt to get attention or power from boys. I can’t tell you how long I had sex with boys and then men, not because I liked it, but because I didn’t think I was good enough unless I did it. If I said no, I felt inadequate because I got rejection instead of the approval I desperately needed. Thus, I learned very quickly that if I didn’t want to feel that overwhelming sense of emptiness and self hatred, I needed to say yes and just get it over with.
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Mari says:
re: Michele #123
I thought Andi made a great point with that question. Seems to me that telling women/girls that menstruation or the ability to get pregnant is something great and wonderful that should be cherished and celebrated and seen as part of who you are is putting pressure on them to want to bear children or feel bad if they don’t. I keep hearing that same idea used in patriarchy-supporting arguments that women who don’t want children aren’t fulfilling their “role” or denying their “nature”, because obviously people with different bodies should think differently and want different things from life. The patriarchy uses both “hate your body” AND “women exist to have babies” arguments all the time. Praising women’s ability to have children has been used as a stealth argument to push women into giving birth as often as possible or judging their worth in terms of how many kids they had.
Basically, making society not hate female bodies makes sense to me as a goal, telling women they should love and identify with every aspect of their bodies doesn’t. Women deserve equal treatment and respect because they’re human beings, not because they’re able to bear children, so whether a woman wants to identify with that aspect of a female body or not is her own business. Why should women NEED to celebrate being able to have children regardless of whether they find that useful or important to them? Body =/= personality, outlook, life goals etc.
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cellocat says:
Perhaps it’s possible to celebrate menarche not necessarily only or solely as the advent of the time in a woman’s life in which she can get pregnant. Knowledge of one’s self is empowering, and part of that is knowledge of one’s body. So many women don’t know that much about how their bodies work. Knowing and accepting the nature of one’s body, and celebrating it, doesn’t have to equal a desire to have children or pressure for other women to have children. It can be a celebration of creative ability, or an appreciation of women’s bodies ability to reset something so fundamental as their entire reproductive system each month. I find it amazing that women’s bodies are capable of growing an entire organ that’s designed to handle complex functioning, and to last less than a year (the placenta). I’d find that amazing whether or not I decided to have a kid.
Sis, thanks for the link. I am also 40 this year, and have been feeling uneasy about the mammogram.
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Mari says:
re: cellocat #125
Yeah, I’m all for women learning about, teaching about or celebrating women’s bodies, my issue was with telling other women that they should also celebrate it.
Women celebrating menstruation and the ability to have children = great
Women telling other women that they SHOULD celebrate menstruation and the ability to have children = not greatBasically, my rule of thumb is don’t tell other women what they should or shouldn’t like, care about, identify with, celebrate or change about their own bodies, just that they should have the choice to do or not do that without being judged for it. Women should have the option of not seeing being female as an important part of who they are (or any part at all), much like how people (should) have the option of not seeing race, nationality or blood type as an important part of who they are (again, or any part at all).
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cellocat says:
Mari, agreed. The should’s get us into trouble. I think often the temptation, after opening a door, it to urge someone to go through it, whether they want to or not. People often don’t trust that someone else knows what’s good or right for them.
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Sis says:
Thread derailment.
##
Don’t believe the hype about mammograms. Yes, the cancer industry wants us to have mammograms every couple years, all of us from the time we’re 40. Their profit rivals Exxon Mobil.
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Sis says:
And: Too much faith in mass screening
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....le1225114/
“But what’s so wrong with screening? How can it possibly do any harm?
“There are five things that can happen as a result of screening tests, and four of them are bad,” says Ned Calonge, who chairs the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force. The bad things are false positives (which result in thousands of unnecessary procedures and unpleasant complications), false negatives (which fail to diagnose an existing cancer, and may lull a patient into ignoring real symptoms), detection of slow-growing cancers that don’t require treatment, and detection of deadly cancers that are going to kill you anyway. That’s to say nothing of the high cost of unnecessary treatments.
The value of mass prostate screening and mammograms is particularly tenuous. One European study found that you’d have to screen 1,400 men to save one from dying of prostate cancer. But of those 1,400, 48 would undergo useless treatment for cancers that are either harmless or too far advanced. Of those, a significant minority would develop serious complications, such as impotence and incontinence. As for breast cancer, one expert estimated that using the latest screening technology, you’d have to screen 400 women for 10 years to spare one woman death from breast cancer. Is it worth it? That’s for you to decide.”
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Michele Braa-Heidner says:
Re: #126 Mari
“Women should have the option of not seeing being female as an important part of who they are (or any part at all), much like how people (should) have the option of not seeing race, nationality or blood type as an important part of who they are (again, or any part at all).”
I agree, all humans should have the freedom to feel however they want about whatever they want, including gender. But there is an inherent danger here. The denial of the importance of gender (especially the female gender) can lead to deniability of the injustice of patriarchy. It has been my experience that women will deny they place any importance on gender or their femaleness or claim to subscribe to a non-duality way of thinking, in order to avoid the pain they feel being female in a misogynist society. By denying that being female is important these women deny there is a problem and patriarchy goes unchallenged.
This deniability has been and can be dangerous to women because it breeds complacency within a system that needs to be changed. This idea that gender isn’t important is a projection of an egalitarian utopia that does not exist in the present, here and now (at least not yet).
Whether we like it or not the fact is, there has been a line drawn between the genders and we need to deal with this reality in order to change it. Therefore, we have to muck around in the gender biases for awhile in order to rectify it and get to a place where gender ultimately doesn’t matter.Right now in our society the male gender reigns supreme and this is only the case because of their propensity towards dominating others. Denying the importance of gender, will not change this fact, but instead make the issue invisible much like the female is in patriarchy. Do you think women would deny the importance of being female if we lived in a matriarchal society? Why or why not?
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Mari says:
re: Michele #130
HUGE COMMENT ALERT, SHORT SUMMARY AT THE END
Seeing being female as an important part of who you are has nothing to do with seeing being female as something that’s important or relevant in current society. I specifically talked about the former, NOT the latter. I’m not talking about women who deal with the patriarchy by pretending they’re not treated in a sexist way. I’m talking about women’s actual image of their own self. A woman can be perfectly aware of how the patriarchy works and the men vs women “cold war” where women have to pretend men as a group aren’t hurting them, this doesn’t mean she must think “yay, I’m a woman, I love everything about my body”. Being aware of how your body influences everything in society =/= thinking your body is who you are or an unchangeable, inescapable part of who you are. Also, women are only invisible in the patriarchy when it comes to being respected or being allowed to have power and status, they’re quite visible as scapegoats, possessions etc. Praising women’s bodies won’t lead to women being treated equally, sexist men (i.e. most of them) are happy to praise women’s beauty or ability to have children. Women deserve respect because they’re people, not because the female body is important for the perpetuation of the human race, or anything else related to their bodies.
People have different personalities and that influences what kind of body they’d prefer. To “celebrate” having a female body implies liking or prefering the parts that are unique to it, or having a spiritual attachment to being female, or something like that. To say every woman should celebrate it is to say that every woman should have a personality that finds a female body to be preferable (and that’s what the patriarchy wants). If a woman, say, doesn’t want kids and wants to do a lot of things that require physical strength, it should be ok for her to say “yeah, it’s my body and it’s natural and no one should treat me worse because of it, but periods and the possibility of pregnancy are annoying and useless to me personally and I would have prefered having more muscle mass” (this isn’t me btw except for the kids part). I find it normal for people’s personalities and lifestyles to sometimes be at odds with the bodies that they had no choice about. That has nothing to do with sexism and the patriarchy (though I understand how some (many?) women could have trouble making that separation). To me, it all comes down to, should people be forced to see their body as part of themselves or should they have the option of seeing their self as being their thoughts, feelings and/or some kind of metaphysical construct?
Another thing is that if you even consider for a moment the possibility of your self not being defined by your body, suddenly all the gender roles and stereotypes stop sounding like they’re something you’re “supposed” to do or be like. It’s like finding a loophole in the patriarchy, where the patriarchy makes the connection from female bodies to self and from female bodies to gender roles and if you break one connection, even as a brief thought experiment, the other also breaks and you can become aware of aspects of the patriarchy that you hadn’t considered before.
Also, that’s part of why I find it useful to think about how things would be in a non-sexist society, because that makes it easier to spot sexism that would otherwise be invisible (like how most women find it normal that women need to care more about their looks than men do, or lots and lots of other things). It helps me to try to figure out what overthrowing the patriarchy really means and what arguments and mental shortcuts could be useful in breaking or becoming aware of patriarchy-induced thought patterns in myself (and possibly others).
“Do you think women would deny the importance of being female if we lived in a matriarchal society? Why or why not?”
Probably not, for the same reason that most men in a patriarchy see being male as important to them. Though, a matriarchy might work out differently, not because women think differently, but because of biological differences and their indirect effects. But I think that in a non-sexist society you’d get a whole range of opinions and view points and none of them would be the default. Here’s another scenario: if that society had advanced technology and medicine, with actual sex change and various kinds of body customization being possible (and no social stigma sorrounding them), wouldn’t there be a lot of people choosing to change their sex, get a genderless body, get taller or shorter or change a whole lot of other things about their bodies? Would that be disgusting and wrong or just a normal consequence of people’s ideas of themselves being at odds with their bodies and them being honest about it? Yeah, you can say it’s useless to even think about a society that doesn’t exist, but I find this kind of thought experiment to be useful and fascinating (for one thing, because I can’t be sure what I or others would do if they lived in such a society).
Tl;dr I was talking about women’s inner self image, not about how they think society treats them because of their bodies; I find it useful to look for new (to me) ways of identifying the patriarchy’s elements, methods and loopholes, and contrasting the patriarchy with a non-sexist and therefore not gender-based society is a huge help for this imo.
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Michele Braa-Heidner says:
Re: Mari #131
Awesome!! I love this site! It’s refreshing to be able to state my opinion about something, and instead of being scolded for it, I get clearly thought out debate. This is really helpful to me because I gain a larger and more diverse awareness of all the issues. Thank you Mari for your thorough reply.
Thanks Violet for this site and thank all of you who participate in these stimulating conversations!
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m Andrea says:
Then I can’t screeeeeem that I love Mari’s #131 comment? :)
And please not to derail any of the far more interesting ideas and implications expressed in that comment, but I have never considered the possiblility of a truly genderless body. I’d never want to be male, but truly genderless? yes yes and yes. It’s not that I hate being female, but I destest this assumption that I must have massive quantities of feminine characteristics, with people constantly speculating why I don’t comply with their expectations.
I could have a urethea surgically constructed in the shape of something totally wacky, but what? Hmmm, I must rethink this whole transgender thing. The tattoo dyes come in purple, but not sparkles. I want a sparkly purple thing between my legs, wah.
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Mari says:
re: Michele #132
Thank you too for participating and I agree that it’s great to see so many feminists talking like this :)
And, indeed, thank you Violet for setting up this place, writing great articles/posts and making sure people can have all these conversations/debates without having to deal with trolls and recycled anti-feminist propaganda every few posts like certain other “feminist” sites :)
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Sis says:
This is where the internet has been such a boon for older women. This one anyway. No way I want a man around to look after. Dictate when we’ll do what. Even nicely dictate.
So. You have an internet relationship with someone. Works for me. Nigel is gorgeous, much younger, intelligent, a libertarian so we can argue, and a professional of a sort whose advice I sometimes need.
But the oxytocin thing? Yes. I am very intolerant to babies, and I’ve always thought it was hormones. I do still like to be attractive though, and I base that on (and give up) being raised to want to be that way, by society especially. And I was. A former beauty pagent person. I used to apologize for it, right up until about menopause. To women. Now I say to hell with that. This is mine. Congratulations on being an engineer/astronaut/physician/concert pianist. I’m gorgeous. Naturally gorgeous, and I derive pleasure from it.
“I have a friend who is 72 and widowed for many years. My husband always teases her about getting a boyfriend and she flat out tells him she can’t think of anything more horrifying then having to care about what a man thinks and wants.”
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Mari says:
re: m Andrea #133
Thank you! The genderless body idea is one of my favorite “sci-fi”-ish things that I’d really want to see as an option in that kind of society :)
