Continuing the conversation on Islam
A couple of weeks ago I posted this link to Apostate’s compelling essay, Why Honor Killings Are A Religious Issue. In light of the New Yorker discussion of the extent to which Islamophobia is racist, sassysenora posed the following question:
i agree completely that attacks on Muslims are more than simple racial bigotry. the bigotry is partly racial, partly cultural, partly political, and partly religious. invidious, uninformed stereotypes underlie all those dimensions. my problem with your approach is that i thought you were opposing that type of argument when you endorsed “every line” of Apostate’s article “Why Honor Killings Are A Religious Issue”.
Apostate condemned Antonova’s article which, while condemning honor killings, argued that they are not per se Islamic but more cultural (i.e., Islam does not always embrace or embody Arab cultural traditions such as honor killings depending upon the culture of its adherents). to me, Apostate’s post was in large part an explicit rejection of the idea that honor killings are cultural as well as religious. Even in non-Arab cultures, she asserts: “Islam IS Arab culture, to a very great degree. Arab culture IS Islam to a very great degree.” Apostate rejects the view that honor killings are not an inherent part of Islam even though (1) honor killings don’t exist in non-Arab Muslim countries, e.g., Indonesia or West Africa and (2) honor killings cross religious divides but tend to follow cultural ones, i.e., if Muslims in a country practice it, usually so do Hindus, Sikhs and Christians.
perhaps we interpreted Apostate’s and Antonova’s articles differently, but your positions seem inconsistent to me. how can you say that honor killings are not partly cultural and partly political as well as partly religious but then say that Islamophobia is only partly racial? it seems to me that implies that Muslims are not motivated by things like culture and politics as well as religion and gender while we’re more complex. If you are not Islamophobic, why do you “embrace” Apostate’s argument that Islam inherently promotes honor killings even though some Imams insist that it condemns them?
I wrote a 500-word comment in reply and then realized that if I’m going to be writing a 500-word comment, I might as well make it a 500-word post. Especially since the intersection of religion and feminism is one of my favorite topics. So here’s my answer to sassysenora:
First of all, I do think we are interpreting Apostate’s post differently.
I read Apostate’s post as objecting to the facile Western (liberal) notion that Islam is a nice idealistic religion that floats above unpleasant cultural practices, and never the twain shall meet. Her point was that religion and culture are inextricably intertwined. Religion codifies culture, and culture reflects religion. You seem to read her as saying that honor killings and other horrors are religious, not cultural, but what she was saying, in my interpretation, is that this is a false dichotomy.
Islam developed in an extremely patriarchal environment (the medieval Middle East) and is saturated with misogynistic notions. There are a few branches of Islam that attempt to transcend the misogyny and embrace a more gender-balanced view, usually because they’re situated in a different cultural environment (for example, the semi-matriarchal tribes of Indonesia), but it’s an uphill struggle. Judaism had a similar start in life, and it took 3000 years to get to the Reform branch and Jewish feminism — and we still have the Orthodox. Christianity took 2000 years to travel that road, and we still have the fundies and the Catholics. It is even arguable (and I have certainly argued it) that the sexism embedded in the deep-history layers of Judaism and Christianity is sufficient to prevent those religions from ever completely shedding their patriarchal frames, though of course many modern, enlightened adherents disagree.
The situation with Islam is even more dire. It’s a much younger religion, and has not encountered an Enlightenment-like revision. It has not been tamed by secularism, as both Christianity and Judaism have been in the West. And it is rooted in a cultural milieu that is more misogynistic than the historical seats of worldwide Christianity and Judaism — both of which were born in the same sands as Islam, but found their destiny in Europe. (Yes, medieval Europe was marginally less patriarchal than the medieval Middle East; that’s not cultural chauvinism, just historical reality.) So it’s easy to look at Islam and wonder how on earth it can ever get to the place where, say, Reform Judaism is now.
But I hope it’s possible, mostly because my preferred alternative (the disappearance of all patriarchal religions from the face of the Earth) seems unlikely. The modern pace of cultural evolution is so rapid that there’s hope. We live in a global village, and memes are the world ocean. Cultural evolution occurs in decades, not centuries. Theoretically, “reform Islam” is a not-impossible goal.
I really don’t know how to help make that happen, though. I could write at length here about the obstacles — political, ideological — but maybe I’ll leave that for the comment thread.
23 Responses to “Continuing the conversation on Islam”
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Apostate says:
Thanks, Violet. Just commenting to say that you understood my meaning perfectly.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:25 pm EST -
FemB4Dem says:
Over twenty years ago in a college course called “the Anthropology of Women,” I sat and listened to a young women professor explain how male academics just didn’t understand women in other cultures, and how they choose to live like they do, including “behind the veil” in Islamic countries. I didn’t buy it then, and wrote my final essay on Islam and how it was a young religion that desperately needed the kind of reforms that had occurred in patriarchal Christianity, in particular a movement like the Troubadour culture in early medieval France that focused on men loving and adoring women, not fearing women, and other types of reformations before it could even begin to be considered something that a woman honestly could be said to choose to belong to, instead of being forced to accept. Since then, from what I’ve observed, there has been no reform, and Islam has only gotten worse for women. Thus, I hold out little hope for “reform Islam.” You may be right that it’s not an impossible goal, but I continue to see it as an improbable one. I much prefer your “preferred alternative,” but also agree that, too, is very unlikely. Which brings us back to a simple fact: Women (and men) must be willing to stand up and call things out that are bad for women, be they religious, cultural or whatever. If we don’t — if we fear being called Isalmophobic for criticizng honor killings, or racist for criticizing hip hop, then we might as well forget about continuing the reformation of our own patriarchal culture. And as Barack Obama and his loathesome supporters, the media echo chamber and the DNC have so recently taught us, we have a loooong way to go on that front.
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Violet says:
Over twenty years ago in a college course called “the Anthropology of Women,” I sat and listened to a young women professor explain how male academics just didn’t understand women in other cultures, and how they choose to live like they do, including “behind the veil” in Islamic countries.
That kind of thing drives me right up the fricking wall. And it’s endemic in Third Wave feminism.
Second Wave feminists understand very well that feminism requires consciousness-raising, because patriarchy is a kind of brainwashing. We lived it in the 60s and 70s. Pre-liberated housewives would say, “but it’s my choice to be my husband’s little helpmeet! Love, honor, obey — that’s how it’s supposed to be!” Consciousness-raising was designed to break down those assumptions and help us see the swill we’d been fed from birth.
Somewhere along the way, Third Wave feminists completely forgot about that. So now if some woman in a grotesquely woman-hating culture who’s been brainwashed from birth says, “But I choose to be slave to my husband, that’s how women are supposed to be!”, the “correct” Third Wave feminist response is to say “how wonderfully empowered you are! Congratulations on freely choosing your destiny!”
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FemB4Dem says:
Yep. I just had a discussion today with a so-called Third Wave feminist, who assured me that women who think being called a “ho” is funny and cute, are so advanced over us silly Second Wave feminists who find the term degrading because they are culturally enlightened and “choose” to be amused rather than insulted. Listening to them, it’s like all the advances we made were for naught. And they helped give us Obama instead of Clinton — what more need be said?
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donna darko says:
My understanding is misogynistic practices like honor killings are cultural and political, depending on local authorities, and reinforced, or codified, as you say, by religion.
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Lexia says:
That’s a brave post in these McCarthyesque times.
I knew a fundamentalist (aka “devout”) Catholic culture up close and personal at a time when Catholic doctors routinely ordered medically unnecessary hysterectomies out of pity, to save the lives and sanity of Catholic women because they were literally being bred to death.
Then along came second wave feminism and the Catholic Church was running scared, keeping quiet, promising vague changes, hoping its supremacist doctrines would pass unnoticed in the egalitarian 60’s and 70’s.
Then came the backlash and men like Clarence Thomas officially embraced its supremacist doctrines and “devout” Catholics like Welch bought up media outlets to whitewash and sanitize bigotry against women.
Religion has always seemed to me like a cultural reservoir for bigotry, where the virus retreats when the organism is healthy, only to break out again when it weakens.
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Gayle says:
“Somewhere along the way, Third Wave feminists completely forgot about that. So now if some woman in a grotesquely woman-hating culture who’s been brainwashed from birth says, “But I choose to be slave to my husband, that’s how women are supposed to be!”, the “correct” Third Wave feminist response is to say “how wonderfully empowered you are! Congratulations on freely choosing your destiny!”
Oh, they didn’t just forget it, most know about it and reject it completely. When a well meaning feminist dares mention the idea of concious-raising, she gets slammed relentlessly. Apparently, it’s now insulting to insinuate someone doesn’t know absolutely everything about everything once they join the blogesphere.
Sadly your example of the slave-housewife isn’t at all exaggerated. I’ve read comments like this, and worse, on third wave blogs, even in regards to oppression as odious (and obviously woman-hating) as that of the FDLS’s polygamist culture.
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Gayle says:
I came to realize liberal dude culture wasn’t feminist during GW Bush’s Gulf war.
I was in college and just assumed liberal meant feminist when my boyfriend invited his very hip, liberal roommate to dinner with us. Oh, he was a gem! He went on and on about the anti-Apartied work he had done in the 80s and regaled us with tales of more recent good doings.
But when the conversation turned to the Gulf, he became very angry. Diane Sawyer recently went to Saudi Arabia and reported without wearing a veil AND our female soldiers were driving in front of the locals. “Shocking and utterly insulting to their culture,” he boomed! “That stupid Diane Sawyer acted like a whore! Now some women over there want to drive!”
I vividly remember sitting there, jaw open, trying to square this rant with what he had just said about boycotting South Africa over Apartied. That’s when it hit me: Oppressing men is bad and should be fought against. Oppressing women is cultural and good liberal men respect other men’s “cultures.”
Many self-described progressive women have bought into this hypocrisy too and seem to bend over backwards finding ways to dismiss or protect misogyny in the Middle East and elsewhere. One of the more common refrains is to tell feminists they should deal with sexism here and stay out of other people’s cultures/religions, etc. Of course, when we do that, we get accused of being selfish and too insular—“why don’t you care about the plight of women in the developing world?”
So after all those many words, here’s where I come back to the subject of your post: Yes, religion and culture are intrinsically linked. It’s not possible to pull one out from the other and I don’t know why, as feminists, we should bother to try. Men use culture/ religion/ ethnicity to divide us from one another (and to defend their hideous behaviors) and this works terribly well. I have no idea how to get beyond it unless it’s somehow possible to create a women’s culture. We have commonalities that transcend the constructs, do we not?
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Gayle says:
Opps, that was way long and I forgot to add the “H” to G.H.W Bush.
It was also more OT than I realized. Forgive me. Getting more coffee now!
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Alikatze says:
Hear, hear! on this post and all of these comments! I have no idea how to deal with Third Wave “feminists” — I can’t even begin to consider them feminists (hence, the quotes) given that they happily support the patriarchal status quo. My feelings are that we have to wait them out, that perhaps the generation after 3rd Wave will be a little more angry and confrontational. I suppose, tho, like everything else, I shouldn’t hold my breath (too long)…
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Violet says:
Morning, folks. Good comments — I agree with you all. Gayle, your comment wasn’t off-topic at all. Wonderful illustration of the faux-progressive mindset (as Shakespeare’s Sister calls it).
Allikatze, if we wait them out I’ll be dead. I think we need to stop playing so damn nice and speak up. There are plenty of young women sharp enough to get the message. Look at Apostate; she’s only 25. A lot of other readers and commenters here, too. And Twisty’s blog was like a magnet for young women who’d outgrown the Feministe/Feministing brand and wanted to hear some good old hardcore Second Wave stuff.
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Pat Johnson says:
I know I am going to come across as an “old harpy” here but it is essentially up to women to change this definition. Men will categorize us for as long as we “give them the permission” to do so.
We own our bodies. They are not for exploitation and women who buy into the male viewpoint are not expressing freedom of choice but merely perpetuating the myth that we agree to the objectification.
Put some clothes on, stop referring to one another as sluts and whores, stop buying into the rap culture presentation that women are mere objects, stand strong and vocal for equal rights and the right to choose, pay attention to the portrayal of us in print ads and television commercials, refuse to submit to laws placing intended to keep us in our places.
We are the majority gender in this nation. Women have come a long way compared to 50 years ago. But they must begin to show respect for themselves first and foremost before men begin to realize that we are a force to be reckoned with and no an object of derision. We have brought much of this on ourselves by our own actions and for us to gain the respect we demand, we must begin acting with respect for ourselves.
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octogalore says:
Well stated as always. The “I choose my choice”/sex and the city third-wave feminism has opted to become everyone’s BFF rather than to actually center women.
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ElleR says:
Her point was that religion and culture are inextricably intertwined.
_____________I agree with you. Religion provides the value system and worldview which a culture is based on. It literally constructs the consciousness of everyone within a particular culture — which is why consciousness raising is still important to women living in patriarchal cultures. The fact that all three patriarchal religions — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam posit a male deity should be the tip off that in patriarchal cultures the standard for being fully human, the standard for ultimate value is the fully realized human male and all else including women is valued in terms of its/our usefulness to the male project.
As to honor(less) killing, it comes in many forms. When I was a girl, many years ago growing up in the American South, my father sat me down and explained that if I should become pregnant, he would disown me, put me out on the street. My pregnancy would dishonor the family. He used the word dishonor and I have never forgotten it. To be put out on my own, pregnant, with no way to support myself, would be tantamount to destroying me. He was very clear.
Today, society disowns single mothers, making it very difficult to do a good job of both caring for children — as they must be cared for — earning a living to support them. This is our society’s form of honor killing, making sure that women (and their offspring) have a poor chance of making it/surviving unless they reproduce in culturally approved ways.
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sassysenora says:
I read Apostate’s post as objecting to the facile Western (liberal) notion that Islam is a nice idealistic religion that floats above unpleasant cultural practices, and never the twain shall meet. Her point was that religion and culture are inextricably intertwined. Religion codifies culture, and culture reflects religion. You seem to read her as saying that honor killings and other horrors are religious, not cultural, but what she was saying, in my interpretation, is that this is a false dichotomy.
violet, my vision is bad today (so i can’t read most of what is here) but i wanted to say that if Apostate’s post had not been in reply to Antonova’s article, i would have read it the way you describe above. as a stand-alone article, it was compelling and, to me, would have supported what you say here. however, when read as an explicit rejection of Antonova’s article (which is how Apostate introduced and framed her article), i interpreted it very differently.
i think the basis of our differing interpretations may be our different understandings of Antonova’s article. you (and Apostate) seem to think Antonova essentially said: Islam is a nice idealistic religion that floats above unpleasant cultural practices, and never the twain shall meet. i did not read Antonova’s article that way at all. i thought she was saying that Arab (and Middle Eastern) cultural traditions influence Islam in a way that sanctions honor killings in Arab countries. this does not happen where the culture is opposed to such practices.
since Apostate was explictly rejecting Antonova’s article, IMO she either had to reject the idea that Arab culture was the basis for honor killings or the idea that culture greatly influences religion. since Apostate is from an Arab culture (and clearly was not disagreeing with Antonova’s idea that Arab culture promotes honor killings), her clear objection to Antonova’s article only made sense to me if she was disagreeing with Antonova’s idea that non-Arab culture can mediate Islam to a large degree, i.e., that Islam itself does not promote honor killings but Islam in the context of certain cultures is used that way.
btw, i agree with you that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are misogynistic. culture can mediate that but it is always a fight against the relgion’s underlying misogyny.
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apostate says:
Sassysenora,
I’m not actually from an Arab culture. My cultural roots are in Pakistan, with a good dose of Islamic culture thrown in.
Most Islam-dominant cultures are misogynistic. I hope that is putting it simply enough.
I disagree with the whole pretend separation of Islam and culture that people try to accomplish when they are trying to exonerate religion from sins that ought to be laid at its door.
The fundamental point is this: Islam is the lynchpin of Muslims’ moral code, particularly as it applies to women and sexuality. Anything that Muslims do, connecting it back to their moral values, therefore is connected to Islam.
Just can’t escape that connection. That’s my point.
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apostatepakistanigirl says:
Now the situation regarding feminist ennabling of Islamic patriarchy is absolutely critical and it’s a stab in the back against women in Islamic countries who are trying to improve their lives. There are so many negative effects of this sense of betrayal by the feminist left, i don’t know even where to begin. One aspect, is while the left retreats from confronting the religious nature of honor killings and gender oppression-the right moves in. We can see this clearly. On a more sinister level, self described Islamic feminists and their supporters claim to have authentic interpretations of Islam that are non patriarchal and promote gender equality. Really? Where do these interpretations come from and who supports them in the Islamic world? They are in fact the liberal musings of western convert women, black nationalist Muslimahs and Islamic based immigrant pressure groups all linked together by a general anti right agenda. Good, people should be anti right, but this requires clarity and honest and reactionism can not be progressive. Can you really be anti right wing when you support brown right wing patrichy and its trappings- including the veil? Allying with reactionary forces just doesn’t work! Well perhaps you do vote Democrat, but that won’t make the knife in the back u thrust into real Muslim women struggling to cope against all the odds any less painful. Religion is on the agenda, not ure Socialism, not ure liberalism, not ure values, it’s Islam, and u may not be the first to suffer due to this sell out- but you will lose ideaolgical focus and you will empower and ennable both the Christian conservative right whom u presumably despise, and the Islamist right who you see through the rose tinted glasses of soft bigotry as poor befuddled brown people incapable of a will to power and a cheap source of votes.
Our rights as ex Muslima women coming from Islamic countries are being strangled in the liberal left blogosphere while the hell we rejected and continue to fight against in the name of womens’ equality is being promoted in much the same way as the left was morally neutral against the Nazis in the 1930’s. There is still time to turn this around, I know for certain that Antonova just declared herself to be a Christian with a future in the Arab world who doesn’t see herself as a feminist anymore. I know that Muslimah Media Watch will not allow any feminist input into the media exposure Muslim need- and that Islam and only Islam has to come first- their whole idea to promote Muslim women in a positive way- absolute dead last in their desire to use those women to promote the mysogonyst religion that oppresses them. Muslimah Media Watch and the other Islamic feminists are working hard to distance Islam from honor killings using every trick in the book Yes, you have all been cheated and conned, but they are practitioners of a subtle art- self serving religious propaganda. One trick they use is to highlight real abuse, harassement in Egypt or rape in Pakistan, but they will always, while condemning the abuse-recommend quintissential Islamic- ultra conservative solutions- veiling and modest clothing being the required formulae hidden in the small print on any Islamic feminist analysis. We will continue to speak out against Islamist ennabling manipulation of feminist lexicon to generate abuse in our countries. Muslimah Media Watch and Antonova’s message is rather like that like that of Kyle Payne- looks good, but the most ultra conservative abuse ennabling dogma lurks shark like underneath. We all got fooled by Kyle Payne, let’s not be fooled by these folks either. Fortunately, I don’t think either have fooled the “Reclusive Leftist,” which is why this is a progressive and true friend of Muslim women in developing countries and apostate women in the west, cos false friends touting a feminism that tells we have to defer to the Qu’ran and wear the niqab is just one more insult, one more betrayal. -
Natasha says:
apostatepakistanigirl,
BEST POST I’VE SEEN IN LONG WHILE,
I left the ‘left parties’ for this Very reason, and believe me the sell out and Dhimmitude is Far worse in the west than most realize, its sickening,
and INFURIATING!!!
colonized minds sister thats what it is, colonized minds
And the west feminists are silent about the Christian and Hindu girls that are kidnapped and forced married in
Coptic Christian communities in Egypt
in Sudan
in Pakistan–recent case, a 10 year old and a 13 year old
in India
in Bangladeshand, its really Sad that it IS the RIGHT WING that is militant in addressing these issues, the Christian right is more militant in confronting
trafficking of women and girls and Sharia law than majority of left [colonized and duped] feminism,
but its a lot of the influence of the Marxist-Stalinist left or the STalinist-MIM camps,
which has been ongoing in the West for long while. From once working in far left party I have seen the influence, on some of the major feminist blogs here in the states, I recognize the rhetoric, philosophy and yes, the propaganda.
And the Dangerous thing is is that the influence and indoctrination or rather, the manipulation of directing towards ’some issues’ while being on purpose silent or apologetic on others, especially where Islam is concerned, is part of that silence to destroy Western civilization/imperialism by propping up a far worse imperialism and theocratic fascism.
And IT IS AN AGENDA, on that the Right is dead on right, and while I loathe the capitalist sell outs in the Right, I have noticed that there is an independent movement not only in the US but in Europe of people from both right and left who are fed up with being SOLD OUT by the EU, by the American government/NGOs, etc., and by the political parties, people are beginning to see,
however you are right–the question is, if they See in time, before its too late?
The biggest problem I think, is this trying to put the oppression and misogyny in Islam on this same level with Christianity and Judaism, and Western life and its extremely dangerous because it Undermines severe oppression,
and can I just be blunt, majority of people in the West simply DON’T GET IT, the majority speak about oppression from their ivory towers, and this includes feminism, they may some, have experience with domestic violence and rape, all which are horrid [and I'm one of them], but they Do not understand, that while misogyny is yes, in all societies and patriarchy is in all societies and all religions,
there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE, in the LEVEL of brutal oppression, that is suffered ON A DAILY BASIS WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE OF GETTING OUT FROM UNDER,
and thats what they don’t get in the west. They can’t comprehend what its like for a ten year old girl to be forced and sold into a marriage with an forty year old man By her family, and then to be raped for the rest of her life, beaten, maybe tossed aside like a used cigarette most likely then to have to prostitute or work in brothel [IF she hasn't already been sold into a brothel at ten years old] and then to maybe even be arrested and put in prison and raped again and tortured and maybe killed,
simply because she is a woman, because SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE, NO LEGAL RECOURSE [BECAUSE THE LAWS CAN SO EASILY BE TWISTED UNDER SHARIA] AND NO MONEY,
and this is not just one case, a minority THIS IS MILLIONS OF GIRLS AND WOMEN WHO LIVE THIS LIVING HELL ON EARTH DAY IN AND DAY OUT
and then, they are forced in areas to eat after the men like dogs, Western women then try to compare That, to sexual harassment here,
and put That on the same damn level and YES its infuriating and I personally, would rather work with the Right at this time, as much as I am adamently (sic) opposed to imperialism, colonization and capitalism and the oppression that stems from those, I would rather work in solidarity with them if THATS WHAT IT TAKES
to DO SOMETHING, ABOUT THIS 6TH CENTURY BARBARISM that is A HOLOCAUST AGAINST GIRLS AND WOMEN WORLDWIDE.
and I’M, A HARD CORE ANARCHIST LEFTIST.
but thats the rage I feel, Disgust and rage, I’ve seen so much apologists in the left feminist camp that there is no Words to describe the rage I feel, while my comrade sisters in Iran die slow deaths every day, EVERY DAY,
and then, the most infuriating thing is to see so called feminists in bed with Jihadi feminists [taqiyya] who then, censor the truth, for Peace,
sell outs, they are nothing but cowardly sell outs, they remind me of the Irish who sold out half to be free, leaving Northern Ireland.
And its not the women no, its the leaders of these ‘cults’ and thats what I call them, cults, who mostly are upper class, seriously, who in their Public Relations narcissism would rather be liked, by the taqiyya women than to Stand up no matter what the cost,
and yes, you are correct, they are BACK STABBERS, OF THE WORST KIND.
We do have misogyny here, sure, we have neoconservativism here, patriarchy, you betcha,
BUT ITS NOTHING, NOTHING, COMPARED TO THE HELL, THAT THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS LIVE WITH DAY IN AND DAY OUT, WHO ARE BORN INTO THAT HELL, and then,
we have apologists here, in bed, political bed with those who want to set that kind of shit here in the west,
or they just Refuse to see the truth and you are correct, its the Left that is doing it. Multiculturalism, which is an oxymoron if there ever was one, because there is no such thing as multiculturalism when one is by infiltration and violence who has LOUDLY PROCLAIMED THEIR AGENDA OF DOMINATION of the WORLD
and they do it every day. In Europe, in America, in our Legal system, in the UNITED NATIONS, they ruled even that there can be no criticism, and they are going after bloggers and artists and any who Dare criticize the human right abuses sanctioned under RELIGION AND THE SUPREMACY OF ONE IN PARTICULAR, ISLAM.
Well, they can sue me, SCREW THEM, screw PC and screw PR,
and I have not a problem with Zero Tolerance for Any who want to push for Sharia or theocratic fascism, none whatsoever,
nor do I have any problem with going to war against it. For every girl out there, for every child kidnapped and forced in Madrassas and beaten and brainwashed, for every woman that cries for DEATH as her only means of escape,
I WILL WAR AGAINST THE FORCES THAT HAVE COMMITTED THESE CRIMES AND ALL THOSE WHO ARE COMPLACENT TO THEM,
and if it means working with the Right to do so, so be it. Until I see the LEFT standing up, for WOMEN, AND NOT JUST CHEAP LIP SERVICE, while they DEAL IN BACKROOMS WITH JIHADISTS,
because they Do, I’ve seen it, men And women, far leftists and progressives who will sell their own daughters out, for Power,
until they change, I’ll work with who [within reason] is willing to Fight this barbarism. What is needed in the free world [or relatively free] is COURAGE,
most don’t have it, they too soft. Seriously, they just too damn comfortable and soft. Even in anti-war movement, women who’ll bear their breasts for regimes that would kill them for less, how do you MEASURE STUPIDITY LIKE THAT?
I don’t think you can…
too many ’soft’ on Sharia and they can scream that they aren’t all they want–but when they silence those who Dare stand up, they show their true colors,
Its a sad day when the anti-slavery and anti-oppression lot throw their lot in with the very forces that are nothing But slavery and oppression, but thats what has happened,
the right is moving towards the left and the left towards [far left especially] 12th century dark ages. Go figure,
it is Really screwed up.
Personally I’m to the point, of being so disgusted, that I’m like, Fine, you want to be apologetic to this barbarism, fine, off you go, send them off to Somalia for about a year,
they might change their tune after…and see what REAL MISOGYNIST HELL IS.
Natasha
Director of WAMI
Women Against Misogynist Imperialism
apostatepakistanigirl -
apostatepakistanigirl says:
Nastasha, excellent, really cool post and I support ure position.
i have tried to find WAMI online but am having some difficulty. I post only really on apostate’s blog site mostly. We got to get organzied for a serious fight and i hope u are ready to join us. Go to apostate’s site where we can organize.We need front line radical fighters cos there’s a huge campaign we got to organize. -
Violet says:
apostatepakistanigirl, click on Natasha’s name at the top of her comment. That goes to the WAMI site. Also here’s the link:
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Greenconsciousness says:
Gayle, everybody here –how did I miss this thread — such a blessing to read — I don’t feel so alone. Part of the left’s brainwashing on this subject has been to condemn all the women’s liberation work done through the war and with our soldiers as cultural imperialism. Go here and see the women’s network - we have to make sure these women are not abandoned once Condi leaves –I will tell you how later - (Biden has done some work on this) first check out the women of courage network and the trafficking stuff. Some stuff is semi-secret like the shelters but more later. The burkaed women the Taliban just shot as prostitutes for US soldiers were probably running the underground for the domestic violence shelters - their pictures are on Phyllis Chesler’s blog.
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Greenconsciousness says:
BTW, the idea that honor killings do not occur in Asia and other Muslim cultures is a myth. I would like stats you have gathered to support that statement - I have plenty to the contrary - have you studied the position of women in Indonesia? It is only FGM that is not practiced in every Muslim country. The subjugation of women by law IS practiced and enforced with violence in every Muslim country -documented in the UN’s WIN publications.
Relevant as Obama hires an apologist for the Muslim oppression of women as his Muslim liaison, see Politico July 21.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07.....htm?page=2
Rashid: Alleged killer says daughter dishonored the family.
Posted: 4:02 am
July 23, 2008ON July 6, police say, a Pakistani named Chaudhry Rashid strangled his 25-year-old daughter San- deela Kanwal with a Bungee cord in her bedroom because she wanted to end her arranged marriage. This “honor killing” came not in Pakistan, but in Jonesboro, Ga. - a suburb 16 miles outside Atlanta.
At his arraignment, Rashid said through an Urdu interpreter that he was “not in the state of mind to talk because of the death of his daughter,” but stated “I have done nothing wrong.”
This is not the same as declaring innocence. His attorney, Tammy Long, explained, “My client is going through a difficult time. As you can imagine, he is distraught.” Apparently, it takes a stronger man to murder his daughter without sentiment.
The national media has paid little attention to the story of Kanwal’s murder, though most outlets found plenty of time to debate the cover of The New Yorker.
When a blonde girl goes missing, cable networks stop in their tracks - but when a Muslim woman is murdered by her father, there’s not a ripple of sustained interest. Where’s the outrage?
Maybe it’s muted because we’ve grown reluctant to pass judgment on other culture’s customs - but multiculturalism hits a crossroads when honor killings come to America.
The United Nations estimates that the world sees 5,000 honor killings a year - overwhelmingly in the Middle East, South Asia and Africa, but increasingly among Muslim immigrant communities in Europe.
The United States has avoided this bloodstained trend until recently. Some consider Kanwal’s death the first documented honor killing here. Others point to the murder of sisters Amina and Sarah Said in Irving, Texas, on New Years’ 2007. (Their MySpace page remains up. Featuring assimilated teen culture and American music, it is haunting.) Their father remains on the run from police.
Few doubt that other honor killings have occurred behind closed doors. In upstate Monroe County just a few days ago, a girl was stabbed by her brother for wearing immodest western clothing and wanting to move to New York City.
According to court documents, Waheed Allah Mohammad explained the stabbing by saying his sister was a “bad Muslim girl.”
“Honor killing is a misnomer,” author and exile Ayaan Hirsi Ali told me. “The killing occurs because these girls have allegedly brought shame on their family. The paradox is that these are individuals who have emancipated themselves.
“These girls embody the American dream. They want to become self-reliant - deciding who they marry, when they marry and how many children they will have.”
On the surface, this sounds like a classic case for the left - outrages well worth protesting. Honor killings and other tribal customs like female genital mutilation represent a far greater threat to human rights than comparatively benign examples of Western sexism, like unrealistic measurements on a Barbie doll.
But this would require recognizing that the greatest danger to civil liberties in the world today comes not from the United States, but from a medieval tribalism that’s still murdering people around the world under the guise of enforcing piousness.
“America is an assimilating nation,” affirms Ayaan, “and so when immigrant Muslim men assimilate into American society they are applauded for it. But when some immigrant Muslim women assimilate into American society, they find themselves ostracized - beaten and even killed by their own families. And the American public ignores their plight to protect the immigrant Muslim community from stigma.”
There should be wall-to-wall coverage when Rashid’s pretrail hearings begin tomorrow in Atlanta. By any standards, this is a sensational crime.
Instead, the trial may well get dismissed as old news or swept under the rug as just another domestic-violence case. These rationalizations cover up a discomfort with wading into cultural judgment - and a desire to avoid the risk of violence that always comes with criticizing radical Islam.
There’s a cost to such squeamishness. In England, Lord Chief Justice Phillips, the country’s top judge, has said that sharia law should be incorporated into British law, while the Archbishop of Canterbury described such incorporation as “inevitable.”
This slippery slope threatens to undermine liberal democracy and even the concept of civilized norms. America must make a stand, because many Europeans either can’t or won’t.
As Ayaan says: “As an immigrant Muslim woman running for your life, from your own family, I think America is a better place for us, because we know that Americans are individualist enough that they will ultimately chose to protect us - while Europeans choose to stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is going on.”
Our ultimate victory in the War on Terror will be to encourage a Muslim reformation by offering examples of successful Muslim-American citizens - especially women - who thrive within the equal rights and open opportunities of American society. For Muslim women who want to live in freedom, America is the last best hope on earth - and we must remain nothing less.
John P. Avlon is the author of “Independent Nation: How Centrists Can Change American Politics.”
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Greenconsciousness says:
Violet and everyone I want you t know about this note from my hero:
This weekend, on both Saturday and Sunday evenings at 8pm, EST, Fox-TV will be airing a one hour documentary about honor murders in America. They interviewed me (Phyllis Chesler) at length and you may see my face and my words on camera.
FOX was the only national media outlet that really covered the honor murder of Sarah and Amina Said in Dallas Texas early this year. Kudos to them for their interest in this subject. The crew told me that I was the only domestic violence expert willing to say that honor murders have something to do with….Islam and with Muslims.
The Fox team was utterly amazing: Friendly, professional, exceedingly well prepared. About six or seven serious men arrived with lights, cameras, and computers and they turned my home into a studio-quality locale. I was interviewed by the very beautiful and brainy Lauren Greene but as I now understand it, the program will also be hosted by Megan Kelly. Let me thank Justin Laffer and Byron Garoufalis for providing excellent backup.
I would welcome your views of the program and the subject right here at my blog.
