More not-sexism
Both from Echidne of the Snakes:
1. Echidne fisks a piece by Joel Stein that is so astoundingly sexist I’m actually surprised it’s running in a major national newspaper.
2. Someone needs to tell Chris Rock about rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, wife-murder, prostitution, sexual slavery, FGM, and various other items that he seems to have gotten through 43 years of life without hearing about.
18 Responses to “More not-sexism”
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anna says:
Well, he’s obviously not interested in being accurate, seeing how women did not burn their bras, or ride the bus to suffrage protests (more like chained themselves to the White House and went on hunger strikes in jail and got force-fed.)
March 1st, 2008 at 12:17 pm EST -
Virginia Ray says:
I was not surprised by Chris Rock - that attitude is all over the internet. Afraid of being labeled racists for so long and remembering the Beloved Community of the civil rights movement, feminists have tolerated too much. Somehow through the years feminists have developed a blindness to the misogyny of the left.
On another thread you, Violet, said that I was getting my information from the wing nuts of the misogynist right, as if I should immediately reject info from that source. I wanted to laugh. I am a radical feminist. I see the exact degree of misogyny from the left and the right. I use bits and pieces from both of them.
It is easier to see the sexism of the right but it is no less deadly or prevalent from the left. In fact, the misogyny of the male left is more deadly because it is cloaked the words which we want to believe.
But I have looked at what they have done not what they said. The fact is the male left is anti-semitic and misogynist. The anti-semitism is important to women because of the status of women in the middle east (another topic, another day).
In this country, the advances made by women in abortion and other areas did not come from any alliances with the left, they came from women organized.
There is a feeling among feminists that the left is somehow on our side, has helped women achieve liberation. Not true. They busted up our groups and hindered our work. All the help came from the center.
I was hoping that the left sexism surfacing now because a woman is moving to power would enlighten feminists. But, it is not happening.
This would be the time to educate the left but the force is too overwhelming. I am once again reminded that the left will use violence and subtle threats to shut women up just as the right will. I feel alone. Many women do. Soon we will all shut up.
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Violet says:
It is easier to see the sexism of the right but it is no less deadly or prevalent from the left. In fact, the misogyny of the male left is more deadly because it is cloaked the words which we want to believe.
I agree. Actually that’s a sentiment that I know a lot of other feminists share, though not all. It’s a theme that gets brought up repeatedly in the intertubes. The “liberal doods” are famous for dissing women and for always, always, always insisting that women’s concerns are in last place, if any place at all.
Remember the Great Pie Fight at Kos?
And I do think this campaign season has shown just how virulent the misogyny can be on the left; that’s one of the most depressing aspects of this whole thing.
That said, there are some men who are genuinely pro-feminist and they are much more likely to be on the left side of the political divide than the right (in my experience). And the left is, I think, naturally a more fertile field for feminist thought to take root in men’s minds, since progressive values tend to favor human justice and equality.
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Virginia Ray says:
I am really relieved to hear your words because I don’t read it a lot as you do. I would like to know where to find these feminists who share my views. I did not know about a pie fight. Please tell more about it.
There are definitely feminist men but I do not see them as left or right - they are like me - feminist - doing feminist analysis. We are not left or right and not as predictable. There is Echidne and Men 4 Hillary and a few men I know. I love feminist men actually. And I think a lot of people that the left categorizes as right and vice versa are really in the center.
But then there are left and right men and the respective Women’s Auxiliaries which seems like the whole world right now. I do know one national scene feminist who said she must stop speaking publicly because she risked income.
You know I understand totally why black people would support a black candidate but the rhetoric, the rational is so—what? I can’t think of the word. And that is more depressing than the Hill losing.
If you want to support a beautiful candidate with virtually no experience (who seems like a deceiver) just say it will be good for our people, good for my kids, good for me to have this for a role model instead of the more numerous sports stars and rappers. Many opportunities will open up. All this is long over due. Blacks who have successful middle class lives will move into government and our whole world will change for the better. BO does not have negatives like Clarence Thomas, etc. Who cannot understand that?
But to say women have not suffered violence as blacks have - whew. Not only does he not see reality, he doesn’t even see black women.
And who is selling Bros before Hos - what is THAT?
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blondie says:
Good grief, there’s a he-man-woman-hater under every rock lately! Neither one of these guys is old enough to be “excused” for such sexist dogma (I don’t believe anyone is old enough, but at least men of a certain age have the poor excuse of seeing their world change and supposedly having to adapt).
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simply wondered says:
i really don’t find the left (male or otherwise) to be anti-semitic. it was a little startling recently (maybe the last time things got nasty(er) in gaza) that one of the independent’s (uk paper) writers came out with a bizarre piece alleging anti-semitism because people had taken spoken against the murders of civilians by the israeli army. and it wasn’t that they hadn’t talked about hammas and the rocket attacks killing civilians in israel either. it was an expression of the disproportionate nature of a response which is wrong whoever is doing it. oh look it’s happening again! the left are about the only people you hear calling israel on this behaviour unworthy of any civilised nation state. wonder what would happen if iraq had been oppressive to its neighbours… ah yes. the potential allegation of anti-semitism should not deter any of us from criticising actions we believe are wrong; just like allegations of bias against poc, women or anyone else. we must all be judged by the same standards.
sorry - i’ve drifted a bit.
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Virginia Ray says:
It was not a disproportionate response - that is the anti semitism — until the rockets and those who shoot them are gone, the response is inadequate. The thing is, this is what you would demand for yourself if your neighbor was firing bullets into your home but when it is Jews getting their arms blown off they should not really fight back until the threat is eliminated. Even if they talk for 2 years while the rockets continue and get more deadly it is not emough.
When civilians live with the shooters - civilians will die - that is not the fault of the Israelis. It is the fault of Hamas and Hezbollah who use women and children as shield for their rockets.
Put the blame where it belongs. Simple is articulating the male left position which is Obama’s position. It is the same argument battered women got when they first tried to leave in 1972 from their male friends.
I want you to go to Chesler’s site and read about Hillary and the alternate position:
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The Ghost of Violet says:
I did not know about a pie fight. Please tell more about it.
The Great Pie Fight of 2005 was when DailyKos, the most popular liberal website in the galaxy, ran a sexist ad and when women complained they were told to go fuck themselves. The owner of the site (Markos Moulitsas) made a point of insulting what he called the “sanctimonious women’s studies set” and assured his readers that he would continue to worry about “the important shit.”
Markos has also said lovely things like “where are the burqas when you need them?” and so forth.
I refer you to Twisty’s classic:
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simply wondered says:
virginia ‘It was not a disproportionate response - that is the anti semitism’
i disagree. the un would disagree too. my anti-semitism extends to condemnation of those firing the rockets too, by the way. invasion remains disproportionate and is counter-productive giving a spurious legitimacy to hammas in the eyes of the world and fuelling the violence. sadly the invasion is more about a government seemingly powerless to stop illegal attacks on their citizens adopting a ’something must be done’ attitude rather than seeking to resolve the problem.
‘civilians will die’ - to be more specific, they will be killed. both those using them as shields and those who feel forced to kill them must take responsibility. (just as misleading as to say ‘women will be battered’ - allowing the male abuser somehow to slip out of the picture; it doesn’t just happen; the act requires an actor. the similarity is that both the abused women and the murdered civilians - some 16 months old remember - are not to blame for the violence visited upon them by others). i don’t believe you can impose peace in that way.
if that’s a male left position then i espouse it, and good for us on the male left - i don’t believe it is, as many women i know hold this view and i have yet to find attitudes on gaza dividing along gender lines.
followed the link but found nothing in the piece that seemed specifically releavant - shall try again when more time.
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Virginia Ray says:
” my anti-semitism extends to condemnation of those firing the rockets too,….”
Really? When ? Where? How effective was your condemnation in stopping the rockets from landing on Jews? Shall they keep waiting for your “condemnation” to stop the rockets? It has been 2 years since the last military action, how many more years? Wait - While the rockets are becoming more and more effective.
People like you are great at telling other people to accept abuse. It makes you feel saintly. But I think you are a hypocrite.
“Simply”, under a snaky disguise, is advocating genocide for Jews - wait until the rockets become nuclear - wait for change from people who openly say they mean to eliminate every last Jew - who fought with the Nazi during WWII and who still are Nazi both to their own women and children as well as the Jews. Wait.
And we women here in the US should wait too. Always wait because the “other” is more important. Wait for the right to vote, wait until the male gets the job, wait until the children are grown, wait for justice, be patient - wait till you are dead.
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The Ghost of Violet says:
“Simply”, under a snaky disguise, is advocating genocide for Jews
No, no, no, Virginia. Simplywondered (Richard) is a friend of mine and a person of integrity. He’s a pacifist and a leftist and most certainly not an anti-semite.
I know you disagree about the war and that’s fine, you can make your case, but please.
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simply wondered says:
‘” my anti-semitism extends to condemnation of those firing the rockets too,….”
Really? When ? Where? -’ posted on it at the time at my blog and elsewhere - feel free to visit. i didn’t march to gaza and offer myself as a human shield. not sure how many did…
‘How effective was your condemnation in stopping the rockets from landing on Jews?’ - entirely ineffective;
how effective was the israeli military intervention? - entirely ineffective. i have the advantage of being rather less expensive and cause fewer deaths.for the rest of what you write … i think making out a reasoned case for my being responsible for genocide may be a bit tricky. good luck with it, though.
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Virginia Ray says:
Violet
I chose the word hypocrite carefully. Would Simply allow his family to be killed one a day? Would he allow his dog or cat to be tortured and then left in his driveway without response? It is easy to be a pacifist when the bullets are not aimed at you, your loved one or your animals - when the bomb does not blow up your house - and this has gone on despite years and years of trying to be reasonable - trying to compromise -talk is cheap - becomes cheap. And even if he would give HIS life, does he have the right to ask it of others?
Simply
Actually, the wall and fighting back has been very effective - if you spoke to Jews you would know it — it is the humanitarian efforts - the pulling back every time which has failed every time.
I would not want you to go to Gaza and stand in front of the bulldozers - I want you to go to Israel and live in a village where the rockets fall. Give your home here to Israeli children for three years. Bring your loved ones and animals to that Israeli village. If they blow up the house you live in, you lose the one in the US forever.
There is a limit to patience - a hardening. Work on your Muslim friends if you want peace - they have to stop bombing or there will be a final war.
Every time you say stop, they will say - only if the Jews do this or that — and the Jews have complied over and over only to be betrayed because the surrounding states love this conflict and profit from it.
It is time to stop indulging the sociopath who puts his children as a shield. It is time to say - you must stop regardless of what the Jews do or lose all the support of the civilized world — the only problem with this is that the sociopath will still have the support of the uncivilized world.
Simply, you must stop working on Jews because they do have a conscience and start working on the sociopaths because that is the moral thing to do. How do you reason with sociopaths? What do you do with them? We do not know - for 20 years civilization has failed. I failed when one lived next door. I do not know what to do but I know that even total submission will not be enough.
I say this as a person who has been victimized by sociopaths and suddenly woke up. There are people who are so damaged that they only understand winning and power over. And nothing is enough. They love the game, live for the game.
The legal system in the US often protects them, when they are intelligent, and blames the victim. That is what Simply is doing and it is very bitter to the victims.
Reasoning with sociopaths will get you dead or devastated economically after they have killed everything you love. That is what Hamas and Hezbollah are and that defines the fiefdom of refugees they have created. Look at the position of women and children among the Palestinians. Women who have escaped have written books - read them.
Have no doubt. If Simply and the male left stopped the aggression of the sociopaths toward Israel, the Jews would respond in kind. Simply’s constant criticism of self defense is a cloak to cover the fact that the thugs cannot be stopped in their aggression.
Why is any of this important? Because Simply represents the views of Obama - he has the same male left perspective. And you can only push responsible people so far. The Jews will not accept another holocaust. I see all of our destruction in the appeasement of sociopaths and continued blame of the victims.
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The Ghost of Violet says:
On Saturday, we held an extraordinary mass march of “Women Against War” in Tel Aviv. Women came from 17 sponsoring women’s organizations*, and we estimate about 3,000 participants (including men). It was a dramatic sight marching through the streets dressed in black as a sign of mourning for the victims on both sides. While the tabloids ignored us, Ha’aretz published a photo and detailed caption, and NRG, one of Israel’s biggest news portals, told the whole story. The Arabic press gave us front-page coverage, and some of the foreign press also captured the story. This was an important action in a society in which the voices of women are always marginalized - and entirely erased during times of war. Our gratitude to the Urgent Action Fund for helping make it possible.
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For chant collectors, here’s a translation of a few of ours (in Hebrew they rhyme):
“Peace and security are not built on dead bodies”
“Money for the disadvantaged, not for war”
“Children in Beirut and Haifa ALL want to live”
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*The participating organizations: Women against War: Coalition of Women for Peace, Ahoti, Aswat, Bat Shalom, Women in Black, FORA (Russian-speaking women), TANDI, Women against Violence, Al-Tufula, New Profile, The Fifth Mother, WILPF, Neled, Feminist House, Ittihad el-Nissa el-Takdumi, and Kayan.
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Virginia Ray says:
and if women on the other side had any power maybe there would be hope - that is why I work for their liberation. But maybe not - every male group has their auxiliary.
You keep believing in peace with sociopaths Violet - it is different for we who live in bad neighborhoods. I choose not to be a victim anymore. However, I hope, as always, that you prevail and the Arab and Persian theocracies are really influenced by marches.
BTW, did you hear what happened to the women in Iran who marched for equal rights?
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Violet says:
My point is that there are plenty of feminist, leftist, Jewish women who oppose Israel’s tactics. Having a beef with Israel’s foreign policy is hardly synonymous with being male, much less with being an anti-Semite or, god help us, a genocidal maniac.
Personally I hold no brief for the Islamic theocracies at all, but the situation over there is a compound clusterfuck, to put it mildly.
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Virginia Ray says:
“My point is that there are plenty of feminist, leftist, Jewish women who oppose Israel’s tactics.”
But Why? And what is the alternative?
After really looking at the pattern over the last 10 years - honestly - why would anyone oppose self-defense? I do not think it is feminist to accept being battered. That is not a feminist position. It is a male left position regardless as to how you self label.
You know there are Feminists for Life but that does not mean that they have a feminist analysis of the issue of reproduction.
To me, Violet, feminism is consistent. I think Israel, countries, women and CHILDREN have a right to self defense - morally - if not under the law of men.
I want to know - what is feminist about not killing those who will not stop trying to kill you - if you cannot back away any more - if there is no where else to go.
Do you and other feminists feel the Jews should leave the middle east - let Israel be over run and Jews be killed one by one?
What is feminist about that position?
I am disliking turning your thread into this big long thing on Israel — but if feminists ever organize again, I hope they get clear on self defense. I spent a long time on trying to get rid on the acceptance of victimization among women but there are still a lot of names for it.
Violet - Have you ever read the novel, “Ariadne” by June R Brindel? You really should - the actress in you will love it - the goddess in you will love it. It sums up the attitude I hate in women which is contradictorily part of their blindness and goodness. And it is all about this problem of the good vs the sociopath - it is where it began and where it will end. Plus , it is set in the old, corrupted religion in Crete. The story of the last priestess.
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Violet says:
You’re talking as if all Israelis are female and all Arabs are male. It’s bizarre. When Israel lobs rockets into Arab-occupied territories, who do you think gets killed? It’s women on BOTH sides who are getting burnt to a crisp.
Pretending that Israel is a battered woman just obscures the truth that Israel, like the Arab nations, is a male-run war-making society. These are men pissing on each other for territory and women, as usual, are caught in the middle.
