Jeebus can’t help you now
This picture appears in the latest online edition of the New York Times. The caption reads, “Virginia Tech students prayed in a church near the university after a shooting rampage.”
I don’t mean to be cruel; I really don’t. I would never say this to one of the traumatized and bereaved people in the picture above. So I’ll just say it to you all, my friendly blog readers:
Why is it that when horrible events occur that demonstrate pretty clearly that if God does exist, She doesn’t give a good goddamn what’s going on down here on earth, people respond by praying? Like after 9-11: people flooded the churches that weekend. I mean, haven’t you just seen evidence that the Big Gal upstairs is not particularly interested?
37 Responses to “Jeebus can’t help you now”
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Mandos says:
I dunno, this sounds like the standard “If God exists why do bad things happen?” argument, which is kind of stale, don’t you think?
April 17th, 2007 at 1:21 am EST -
Violet says:
I’m not talking about people in an ivory tower debating the problem of evil; I’m talking about the reaction to bad events. It’s illogical for people to turn to God when what they’ve just experienced is a pretty good indicator that God’s not interested.
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Mandos says:
Why do you interpret it that God is not interested?
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simply wondered says:
just as those who want a sky fairy believe on general principles, so i disbelieve on general principles… just the way i feel. i don’t begrudge these kids a sky fairy (i’m sure you weren’t saying you do either, v) as i wouldn’t begrudge them a teddy bear. they would both serve their purpose at these times.
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cicely says:
People often do lose their faith in god in the face of huge cruelties and injustices, or at least I’ve seen many references to this over the years and to others’ faith being severely tested. The strongest believers whose faith is nevertheless tested appear to consider it a triumph of that faith when they can continue to believe. I think they mostly satisfy themselves with the common understanding that ‘god moves in mysterious ways’ or that it’s not god’s will but the devil’s or evil human will that causes awful things to be done. Either response in the face of horror – loss of or continuance of faith can make sense. At least, it must be obvious that sensible people can have either response. It all depends on the nature of one’s own faith or belief in god, if you have that to begin with, I guess.
I can’t even imagine what it feels like to believe in god, since I never have, but I guess a believer – equally – can’t imagine what it feels like to not believe.
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Infidel says:
What is beyond our comprehension? O.K. call it “what”. Call what “what”? It. It is “what”? “It” is what is beyond our comprehension. Words only come close to conveying meaning. We agree on words but not exactly. We can only imagine that we communicate with each other, we can be sure we communicate the same with God since God either exists or doesn’t exist. Let us pray. God please stop the sensless violence we have suffered and some of us have caused, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.
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Kaitlyn says:
It’s comforting – a promise that it will get better, at least when they die.
Plus, it’s in Virginia. Not too far from Tennessee, so I think it’s part of the South, where you are brainwashed at an incredibly your whole life, before you know what’s going on.
The girls at the psych ward prayed before eating the “food” they gave us. What had God done for them?
I don’t know.
I like what Simply Wondered said – it’s a teddy bear.
If something like this happened to someone I know, I’d take solace in my puppies.
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Kaitlyn says:
I also can’t imagine what the atheists are doing there while their classmates are praying.
It is incredibly uncomfortable to be in a room full of praying people.
I had to talk to my cousin’s mother-in-law, a minister, and she prayed for me over the phone – out loud. It was weird.
Everyone was like, “I’d be mad at God too if I were in your shoes.”
“I’m not mad at “god”! I just don’t believe in one!”
“You have to believe in something!”
That was awful – last October. My mom left me in Memphis for 2 hours b/c I didn’t believe in God and spit in the all the faces of everyone praying for me. Religion sucks.
She was going to force me to go to church, but I convinced her I’d be better off taking Dixie for a walk.
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cicely says:
I mean people who’ve always believed in that last sentence. The concept of ‘finding’ god from a place of non-belief is something else and another thing I can’t imagine.
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cf4 says:
I don’t mean to be cruel; I really don’t.
Bullshit.
If you didn’t mean to be cruel you wouldn’t have posted it.
Your post is disrespectful of people who are suffering tremendous losses. Just because they cope differently from you doesn’t mean they deserve your mockery of their faith.
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Infidel says:
Peace brothers and sisters, don’t mock. “Really don’t mean” means really don’t mean. You mock meaning when you say it means bullshit.
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Violet says:
cf4: fuck off. Nobody from VPI is reading this post; I’m not mocking them; I’m talking to my blog readers.
Their faith is a teddy bear, and I wouldn’t take it from them for the world. I’m just wondering about the response.
People often do lose their faith in god in the face of huge cruelties and injustices, or at least I’ve seen many references to this over the years and to others’ faith being severely tested.
Absolutely. Lisbon earthquake of 1755 > Enlightenment. It’s a recurring motif: people observe that the world is full of random and horrible acts and it dawns on them that the answer to the question, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” is: There is no reason. Everything is just following its own process. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, homocidal maniacs gotta murder 32 people.
I realize though that my question is stupid in terms of analyzing people’s immediate response. People’s immediate response is always going to be to rush to whatever belief they’re used to. That’s normal response to shock. I imagine the philosophical re-evaluation comes later.
On the other hand, the turn to church is for many people I think a deliberate attempt to reject the “birds gotta fly” argument, because they’re personally uncomfortable with a world where there isn’t a God planning everything, rewarding good and bad, answering prayers, etc.
After 9-11 I remember reading an article about the people who went to church after never having been church-goers in their lives. One woman who was profiled thought that 9-11 just seemed to indicate that the world is random, that shit just happens, etc. I was reading that and thought “Yes, exactly.” But the woman’s response to this realization was to go to church. Because she didn’t want it to be true! Wanted somebody to tell her otherwise. This seems to me to introduce all kinds of other problems: you’re choosing to believe in a God who’s personally deciding on the Holocaust, etc., and whose actions in the world are completely indistinguishable from natural causes, etc.
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cf4 says:
cf4: fuck off.
Nice. I love how national tragedies bring us all together, don’t you?
I sincerely hope that, in the afterlife, there’s a special section for people who exploit tragedies to advance their own political and religious beliefs. You, Charlton Heston, and GW Bush should have a lot to talk about.
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Infidel says:
An English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service…he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic…a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol
he was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony…Until Monday, the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby’s Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.
Oh! that makes alot more sense. There was a time in history we wouldn’t have known, or we would have known months later, but we will never really know- we just have to believe because it happened and there are witnesses telling us. Now there are pictures and video. Having all the information possible the question remains. The answer “Birds gotta fly”. Why do we pray? We don’t. Why do some pray? There are as many reasons as there are numbers of people that pray. -
B. Dagger Lee says:
We haven’t figured out meaningful ways to handle people’s emotional needs in these situations. There’s clearly an emotional need to come together into groups (probably especially for adolescents) but there are no non-religious structures for doing this.
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Violet says:
people who exploit tragedies to advance their own political and religious beliefs
What in the HELL is your problem? Are you just stupid? “Exploiting”? Yeah, I’m totally exploiting this tragedy to advance my big atheist platform for world domination.
This is a private blog, you twit, and the discussion and analysis of religion has always been part of it.
Fuck OFF.
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B. Dagger Lee says:
Also, as per Voltaire in Candide, the Lisbon Earthquake prompted first a “splendid auto-da-fé.”
And you could certainly argue that 9/11 prompted the same.
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Violet says:
There’s clearly an emotional need to come together into groups (probably especially for adolescents) but there are no non-religious structures for doing this.
This reminds me of something I meant to say earlier: that my question was largely prompted by the kind of religion that I’m assuming these students espouse. The women in the picture may not be Christians, but because they’re VPI students and they’re at a church, I’m assuming they are. And Christians (at least many modern American Protestant Christians) believe in a world where God is constantly pulling the strings in response or not to people’s entreaties. It seems to me that that kind of belief must take a beating in the face of random senseless tragedies.
On the other hand, if the women in the picture were Buddhists or Native Americans or pagans or something, then their gathering would be along the lines of “A horrible thing has happened and we are badly shaken and we need to emotionally align ourselves with the Universe again.” The problem of evil or of God’s intentionality doesn’t occur for them, because they don’t believe in that kind of god.
Some people would say that the Christians are really just doing the same thing, trying to align themselves with the Universe again. And for many of them that really is the case, ultimately. But the more you’re around southern Christians the more you realize how much they really do think in terms of a God who answers prayers, who blesses some people and not others, etc. A God who sends a shark to eat you but, in response to your hurried prayer, allows the shark to only bite off one leg rather than kill you (actual example from a relative).
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Kaitlyn says:
I just got a card I should send to those students, I guess. It’s from my sister’s youth group because I’m on their prayer list until I get better, dammit!
On the front, it has pretty flowers and a pretty sun and sez 37 cents at the top. Oh! It’s a stamp, methinks. Meopens the card, “Now you’ve seen the largest stamp but that’s not the greatest wonder of the world.
God
Loves
You!And a pretty red heart next to it.
On the other side, the back of the ‘largest stamp’ it says, “One Creater of ALL*!”
With a cute little cross below it.
If I throw this out, I am shit on a stick at my house. I hate religion.
*ALL is green, the rest is purple.
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Infidel says:
What about a moment of silence? Observe a moment of silence. Makes way more sense than prayer. Still what sense does it make? An opportunity for each of us individually to reflect-together. Hmmmm. Lets all not do something. How atheists suffer when we are all asked to bow our heads in prayer- then a single righteous one chimes in “in the name of… blah de blah blah blah blah…amen.” Look how easy it is to walk into our institutions of higher education and kill. Look how messed up a South Korean English Major at Virginia Tech can be. Look what we do. Look what the police did that morning. Look Look Look.
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B. Dagger Lee says:
I think wishful thinking trumps everything with human beings, so people’s faith/wishful thinking is strengthened by these situations.
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2sheds says:
There is no difference between one person dying or many. It just seems bigger. My dad was in hospital last year with kidney failure. He said that he was ready to meet his maker. How could I tell him that there wasn’t one. He died months later.
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Violet says:
2sheds, I’m sorry about your father.
If my father were dying I think I would actually encourage him to believe he was going to meet his Maker. Despite what cf4 seems to think, I have no quarrel whatsoever with the comfort religion offers people. I just wonder about the mechanism.
My problem is with religions that go past comfort and tell their followers to force their views on everyone else, oppress women, discriminate against gay people, stifle knowledge, etc., etc.
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Infidel says:
“…you realize how much they really do think in terms of a God who answers prayers.”
…Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death…amen
Because us Christian sinners probably pray to Mary to pray for us because us Christians probably don’t know how to pray because it never works and at least God will listen to Mary and we’re sinners so at least at the hour of our death please pray for us Mary now and at the hour of our death, oh! and God thanks for our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Oh and we pray that we won’t be led into tempatation and be delivered from evil.
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Gwen says:
Some people would say that the Christians are really just doing the same thing, trying to align themselves with the Universe again.
Yes, that would be my answer. I guess I would pray after something horrible happened to me or mine in much the same way, and for the same reasons, as I would call my mother to talk it over and for comfort. I don’t see the contradiction in doing that; but then, I don’t espouse the theology you describe, of seeing each act/event in the universe as something God does, personally, to me. So. Yeah. But even you have that theology, I guess the knee-jerk need for comfort is there. You don’t really go looking for philosophical consistency in moments of deep emotion when all you’re trying to do is cope.
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Bruce says:
Why is it that when horrible events occur that demonstrate pretty clearly that if God does exist, She doesn’t give a good goddamn what’s going on down here on earth, people respond by praying?
In this case, I think it’s a way for people who basically feel powerless to convince themselves that they have some sort of power to change the world (via praying to their god).
Also, because our political system has become so ineffective in actually helping people and protecting the welfare of society, people turn to their gods instead of trying to accomplish change through the system. And this is exactly what the conservatives have wanted all along, vilify government as evil and convince people that they should rely on their faith rather than people and government. We don’t need stricter gun laws, we just need more faith and everything will be all right.
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Infidel says:
“…people turn to their gods instead of trying to accomplish change through the system.”
So instead of writing my congressman, or voting for someone who promises what I want- I make a reasoned decision to pray to God. What keeps me from praying and continuing attempts to accomplish through the system?
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TheManOnTheStreet says:
If you had not intended to mock, then you wouldn’t have sexed God as a “She” and “Goddess”. You did intend to mock, you tool. Admit it.
TMOTS
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Steven says:
Violet said:
“And Christians (at least many modern American Protestant Christians) believe in a world where God is constantly pulling the strings in response or not to people’s entreaties. It seems to me that that kind of belief must take a beating in the face of random senseless tragedies.”Not really. God gives us choices and some people choose to do evil. It’s really that simple.
Would you want God to make you an automoton wherein you could not do things that He clearly thinks are sinful? No, you want the freedom to do as you please, even when those things are wrong or hurt others.
Faith doesn’t at all take a beating when bad things happen – God isn’t interested in your instant gratification or all that – His ultimate goal is that when you die, you are prepared to enter His kingdom and have eternal peace.
Does that help?
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Steven says:
Although I do not agree with TMOTS’s adhominem, it does make me wonder:
Are you planning to pen a thread about Mohammed? He was quite the misogynist, and the followers of Islam treat women as chattel.
In our politically correct U.S. we seem only to insult Christians, while not mentioning that our “oppressive” western culture was the first to end slavery, emancipate women, and that American women are the most free, entitled, and protected/pampered women in world history.
If you attack Christians solely for their belief, and not from an anti-Christian ideology, then please feel free to attack Muslims even more so for their blatant misogyny.
Steven
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Mandos says:
You’ve missed more than one such thread criticising Islam.
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Steven says:
Mandos says:
You’ve missed more than one such thread criticising Islam.
Oh, I just recently started posting here and did not know that. I stand corrected. Thank you for informing me; I appreciate that.
Steven
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Violet says:
TheManOnTheStreet is from an extreme anti-woman hate site (I’ve deleted the URL in his name), so I’m wondering if I’ve been linked again by the MRAs.
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simply wondered says:
‘If you had not intended to mock, then you wouldn’t have sexed God as a “She” and “Goddess”.’
the man on the street automatically assumes that assigning god a female identity must be an attempt to mock. now let’s see what that makes us think about what he thinks of women… mind out for the traffic, mate.
steven likes to do a bit of posting doesn’t he! but at least we have learned what god’s ultimate aim is – how come he has worked this out – what with his brain being the size of a walnut – and not one of those nice organic walnuts either but one that’s produced involving significant amounts of cruelty to monkeys – and we didn’t?!
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All says:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
It’s not about Regilion, it’s about relationship. Regilion is comprised of man-made laws. Examples are Islam and Hinduism. Christianity is about a relationship with God.
A statement was made the Christians oppress women. Not true. Again that’s Islam. The writer of the gospel of Luke was a doctor (highly educated) and the first person after Jesus Christ to bring equality and respect to women. Children were once considered disposal until Christ Jesus came and brought honor to them.
If knowledge is truly sought, investigate (really investigate) to see if God does or does not exist. Don’t go on just feelings, use your mind to see. Don’t go on hear say, find out for yourself.
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simply wondered says:
…. silence …. broken only fitfully by the sound of my head banging against the same old wall…and the distant echo of points being missed
oh dear – they really do seem to believe this stuff they parrot, don’t they? chuck ‘em a cracker anyone?
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Infidel says:
Luke kind of turned to the “Dark Side” a couple of times, and he’s got that prosthetic hand thing going- you know that’s the first step towards ending up like his father Anikan Skywalker who was dragged from the molten lava and is/was almost entirely prosthetic and so under the command of the dark sith lord, it’s really to bad too cause he had all those mittachlorians working for him- but it all worked out though in the end when the evil emperor got taken out by the demonstrated synergy of Luke and his Fatha making up a force greater then the sum of its parts. And the Jews didn’t really care about their first born being taken out by Pharoah until after Christ.
