News Flash: Two Wrongs Make a Right
I’m overjoyed that the British sailors have been released. I’m not surprised at all that they were bullied while in captivity, though we can at least be glad they weren’t physically harmed. That said, here’s something I’ve been gnawing over for the past several days: why is it that the existence of Guantanamo Bay (and Abu Ghraib, for that matter) justifies any mistreatment that unfriendly nations might wish to mete out to captive soldiers from the U.S. or our allies?
Of course we all know that it does justify it, effectively; here in the U.S. people have been pointing out for several years now that our treatment of enemy captives has put every single U.S. soldier at risk for the same. That’s how the world works: you torture our captives, we’ll torture yours. And that governments behave that way is unsurprising, since governments are evil. All governments, even the ones that on balance do good. It’s something to do with institutionalism and the way actions that would be considered heinous crimes if committed by individuals become “policy” when committed by states.
But what I’m wondering is why normal people also take that line: that anything meted out to U.S. or British captives is perfectly justified because of Guantanamo. For example, read through this BBC forum where people are expressing their opinions on the release of the British sailors. Notice how many people say that, in essence, the British sailors had much worse coming to them because of Guantanamo. And this theme has been sounded repeatedly in the BBC forums throughout the crisis, people saying, “well, so what? Guantanamo!” How does that actually work inside a person’s mind?
Because: George W. Bush is a corrupt dictator and is served by sadists who have instituted illegal imprisonment and torture,
Therefore: a working-class British subject who happened to decide to make a career in the Royal Navy deserves to be illegally imprisoned and tortured.
As I said, I expect governments to use that kind of logic. But normal people? It’s frightening.
9 Responses to “News Flash: Two Wrongs Make a Right”
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Kaitlyn says:
That is a stupid idea, but it is sadly true.
However, it’s a never-ending cycle.
We do X, they do X and Y, we do X, Y, and Z, and so on.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
I’m hungry, and in pain and the thought that gitmo is used as an excuse to hurt others… but the existence of Saddam’s rape rooms is an excuse for gitmo – how can we fight an enemy if we don’t stoop to their level?
What a stupid argument. The question, not what you said. I don’t feel good.
April 7th, 2007 at 8:31 am EST -
Infidel says:
If it is all just one ups-manship who started it isn’t nearly as important as who is getting blamed for starting it. Let us all just blame ourselves and be done with it. “I take responsibility”, “We are handing over sovereignty”, “winning hearts and minds”, does anyone really beleive this hogwash! Violent people love killing and torturing and dominating other people, and they won’t be stopped. Punishment is all there is after. Everyone is punished. You can kill yourself on the “antitheft” packaging plastic that surrounds every item anyone might buy over nine dollars, why? because of theft, because of thieves.
Anti-Terrorism, Anti-American, Anti-Drug, Anti-Nuclear, Anti-Dis-Establishment-Arianism. -
simply wondered says:
we do seem to like opportunities to kill each other, don’t we. still, faye turney is going to be used by the UK govt for propaganda just as the iranians tried to use her – but at least she’ll get 100k this time instead of a second-hand hijab; i mean, she didn’t even get an iranian suit, did she? and knowing us we’ll do it better.
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gordo says:
I couldn’t agree more. It’s as if torture, or less horrific forms of mistreatment, provide some sort of relief for a certain kind of person. So whenever they can think of any justification, no matter how thin, they jump up and cheer at the news that someone has been mistreated.
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simply wondered says:
stop press – ooh no it was all a big mistake (the government realised this when they a heard a loud noise from the ordinary folk of albion going ‘this is a big mistake’)and decided to reverse their policy. odd that they couldn’t hear 2 million of us standing in the park telling them NOT TO INVADE FUCKING IRAQ???
fingers in their ears la-la-la-la-la… -
Steven says:
Wow, I’ll obviously be in the minority here.
I’m a conservative, and I’m a soldier in the U.S. Army.
Contrary to what I think I am reading here, and I may have misinterpreted it, people in the military do not like killing people. We shoot back at people who shoot at us or at civilians.
Now, I know my stance on this is contrary to many here, but I hope you notice I am not using ad hominem attacks and that I try to be respectful and on point in the discussion.
First off, Abu Ghraib. Total disaster. What happened was that the M.I. (military intelligence) was given free reign in ONE section of the prison. They gave very little guidence to the soldiers, and let the soldier invent their own little sick twisted “games” to play on the Iraqis. When one of them was horrified at what was being done he took pictures and tried to get the torture stopped. The guilty soldiers were punished. Now, that said, the field grade officers and the general running the place were NOT punished – and that’s bullsh*t.
As to their actions and attitudes – they were just plain wrong. However, I remember a study done in the late 60′s or early 70′s on a college campus wherein 1/2 of a class was to play prisoners and 1/2 were the guards. What was so striking in this study was how quickly both groups adopted some very sick pathologies. The “prisoners” were throwing feces and taunting the gaurds and the “guards” were abusive, played sadistic games, and were incredibly cruel to the “prisoners”. Rather famous study – if anyone is interested look it up – very interesting stuff.
The main problem at AG (Abu Ghraib) was that no oversight or guidence was given. And people, not exclusive to soldiers by any means, can be sadisitic when they feel they can act with impunity.
Now, as to Guantanamo, the prisoners are not tortured. I know because I know soldiers who worked there. The soldiers every action is scrutinized, and most interactions are filmed – meaning human rights groups can scrutinize the prisoners’ treatment. Most walk in there skinny, having not visited a dentist (ever!), and in poor health. They usually gain a lot of weight due to being fed so well (with Islamic specific meals), get more water to drink than the soldiers do, are treated by doctors and dentists and are in excellent health.
So the “we treat their people bad, so they treat ours bad” is not an accurate description.
At AG our soldiers were punished for their actions, the Jihadis who torture and behead our troops are lionized by the Jihadis. Not quite the same cultures or values, no?
As to us being in Iraq, ask me questions, I was IN Iraq and can tell you what is going on. Trust me, what you see on CNN and the nightly news is NOT what is going on over there.
Hope that added to the discussion.
Steven
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Violet says:
Everything Cheney says is true: Gitmo really is like Club Med!
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simply wondered says:
‘Wow, I’ll obviously be in the minority here.’ -
at last steven makes a comment we can agree with; i haven’t noticed too many regular commenters here that appear to have nothing but shit for brains. more intellectual challenge watching the shopping channel, i reckon. -
Infidel says:
“We shoot back at people who shoot at us or at civilians.”
You gotta like that.
“…people in the military do not like killing people.”
It emboldens the enemy.
