Typical Male Stupidity
or Why Dr. Socks is in a Bad Mood.
Over at Salon the letter writers are discussing men’s increasing demand for women to shave their vulvas.
If you’re a woman, you know that this is true:
It *is* a big deal to get waxed if you don’t want to do it…it hurts, it’s invasive, it’s expensive, and I don’t feel like doing it.
If you’re a man, on the other hand, you probably think that spending $50 to have some stranger rip your pubes out by the roots and leave you with boils and a rash that won’t go down for weeks is as simple as putting your hair up in a ponytail:
You wouldn’t dump a guy who asks you to put your hair up instead of wearing it down. Why dump men who prefer a closely groomed pubic region over a haphazard, wild bush? It’s a simple personal preference. Your extreme reaction to their preference suggests that more may be going on in your mind than explained in your letter.
So, my question is: why are men so fucking stupid? Well, as that first letter-writer points out:
I think what bums me out the most is that women permit this to happen because they keep the means of production completely obscured and make things seem easy and low-maintenance that aren’t even remotely easy or low-maintenance.
True enough; concealing the means of production is what women have been doing for thousands of years. And we’re still at it. Though I gotta wonder: if I can read articles and learn that Brazilian waxing is a torment worthy of Torquemada, why can’t men do the same? Does their reading comprehension drop to zero when the subject is the pain women endure in order to be suitable sexbots?
And then of course there’s this:
I have a friend who is one of the few women I’ve known to dally with much younger men (she’s gorgeous, rich, late 40′s). Her boy toys are in their 20′s. She has reported to me that she detects the influence of porn in the younger generation. The sex is more like performing an imitation of the visuals in your head. The men are less present, she says, then they used to be. The preference for shaved pussy goes along with this.
I swear to God, it never fails to amaze me how much men hate women. Women want love, passion, and relationship with other human beings; men want inflatable dolls. Jesus.
74 Responses to “Typical Male Stupidity”
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Timothy Shortell says:
Why do most men want inflatable dolls? Because that is how they are socialized. Sexuality is a complex set of learned behaviors. No one is born knowing how to fuck.* Everyone discovers it as they grow into adulthood. And for most men, porn is a big part of that education.**
This is how a sexist society reproduces itself.
The norms change, of course, but they always reflect the basic sexist inequality. The only way to change it is to build new institutions of socialization to train young people in egalitarian norms. A good start would be to lock all the church doors.
*Not just the sex act, but all its associated rituals, wrapped inside of cultural norms about attractiveness and sex roles.
**Because of our Puritanism, we don’t have any real, effective sex education, so where else are kids going to learn about it?
August 9th, 2006 at 3:02 pm EST -
manxome says:
Ugh, you ventured into Salon’s moron-land and… and… I clicked! I just had to see the full post from the “wild bush” quothee behind door #2. Herewith I vent:
Why the negative emotion associated with basic grooming?
Since when is it basic grooming, noname? Do you wax your pubes? Do tell, how are female pubes different? Please answer from a position of entitlement. Go!
As a 20 something male, nearly all of the women I date keep it either very well trimmed or shaven. In as much as you clean out your ears, clip your fingernails, and scrape your tongue before a date, it’s important not to let let a pubic forrest grow unattended.
How’s your forest looking, sparky? Are there prickly vines growing in it from lack of garden maintenance? I think we should take a slash and burn approach to it, don’t you?
Comparing it to an infant reveals only your negative emotional orientation to the practice and probably isn’t your real reason for objecting to it. Without the objection of infantalization, there could easily be another rationalization of your negative emotions.
I await with bated breath to hear from a man what a women is supposed to think. This happens so very rarely, don’t you know!
I would suggest that many women are insecure about the attractiveness of their labia and pubic region and veiling it with pubic hair is psychologically comforting.
Veiling it? Are you fucking kidding me? The hair is already there. It’s not like it’s super-glued to your bald spot in the morning like a bad toupee.
Of course, whether this is true for you or not is something you’ll have to ask yourself.
How very generous of you, noname. If one asks themselves this, what is the proper answer? If one answers anything but “it’s psychologically comforting to veil my unattractive labia” are they just rationalizing their negative emotions? Oh, do help us out here!
You wouldn’t dump a guy who asks you to put your hair up instead of wearing it down. Why dump men who prefer a closely groomed pubic region over a haphazard, wild bush?
Ooh! Ooh! I know! Because he’s a prick? Perhaps “why don’t you shave that haphazard, wild thing?” comes across a bit much like “your natural state physically disgusts me, but I’ll screw you if you make changes x y and z”. I’d say that’s dump material. She’s a not-as-desparate-as-you’d-like-her-to-be human looking for a relationship, not born by default to fulfill your porn fantasy.
Speaking of which, why are you so concerned whether some guy you don’t know is getting to manipulate and shag some womam you don’t know? Why the fuck do you care, and how does that benefit you? I know the answer, but since there’s no way you could, I wonder what you think it is.
It’s a simple personal preference. Your extreme reaction to their preference suggests that more may be going on in your mind than explained in your letter.
If it’s a simple personal preference, jackoff, then why are you having such a hard time accepting that this woman’s personal preference is to not mutilate her privates at the dudely command? Unless, you know, she’s not quite a person and therefore cannot be granted “personal preference”. Dear pasta, she’s denying some random dude sex! Sound the alarm!
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V. Marlene says:
I am a male and I think it is cleaner and nicer than all that messy hair. I use a Emjoi Gold Caress electric tweesers and keep everything cleaned off once a week from myself. Really hate body hair except on head.
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will says:
ok, despite my natural reluctance to discuss such matters, I will wade into this jungle.
As with most things, the issue is about general assholeness.
I know many women who happily wax because they prefer it. I also know women who happily shave because they prefer it that way. I also know women who don’t do either because they prefer it that way.
Like with many things related to sex, a couple needs to be able to talk nicely (or naughtily) and discuss their preferences. (Quite frankly, this discussion reminds me of the blow job discussion.) A person who is a jerk is going to be a jerk about this issue, just as they will be a jerk about other issues. This issue is hardly unique.
I do not think that someone is a asshole because they have a preference.
For various reasons, I have had some professional dealings with the waxing industry. Waxing is not torture. Some people do not have a problem. Some people hate it. Personal preference.
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Violet says:
Will, two things:
1) It isn’t just about having a preference — unless it was also just a preference for women to have 18-inch waists thus necessitating rib removal, or it was just a preference for women to have tiny feet achievable only through life-long mutilation, or it’s just a preference for women to have giant round breasts available only via silicone, or hairless legs and arms while men, of course, go au naturel. This isn’t just preference; it’s about how society demands that women, the sex class, deform their bodies and undergo the most painful tortures in order to retain acceptable sexbot dimensions.
If men are starting to deform themselves too, then fine, but they’ve got a long way to go. When the majority of American men shave or wax their bodies, get silicon enhancements or at least wonder if they should, and spend most of their working hours in painful shoes just because that heel really flatters the leg, then we’ll talk.
2) My main gripe is about the utter cluelessness of men who think that wax-torture (and it IS torture for a LOT of people, including me, so don’t tell me it’s not) is no big deal, just something women ought to do to please their boyfriends. Just like putting your hair up in a ponytail! Stupid fuckheads.
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Violet says:
I would suggest that many women are insecure about the attractiveness of their labia and pubic region and veiling it with pubic hair is psychologically comforting.
You know, Manx, I couldn’t believe that quote the first time I read it, and it’s no more credible the second time. That’s the porn talking: “many women are insecure about the attractiveness of their labia.” I’ve never even thought about the attractiveness of my labia. I’ve never even thought about what they look like, period. Good lord. Only somebody whose idea of women comes from looking at shaved porn could even imagine that women think that way. Much less imagine that women leave their pubic hair — which is already there and part of the body — as a “veiling” for this supposed embarrassment.
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will says:
Violet:
I shave my face every day. Darn that society making me conform!
Same goes for deodorant.
And why am I wearing a tie in this heat?? Or a suit jacket and pants while you wear a cool skirt and skimpy top?
You can be hairy if you want.
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will says:
“I swear to God, it never fails to amaze me how much men hate women. Women want love, passion, and relationship with other human beings; men want inflatable dolls. Jesus.”
Now that I have thought about this, you are correct. We should have just remembered are early training:
“Sugar and spice and everything nice, That´s what little girls are made of. Snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails, That´s what little boys are made of”
Women are good. Men are evil. Got it.
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richard cherry says:
Oh Doctor; I am about to make myself no new friends….However!
The article mentioned I am prepared to believe without perusing is terminally fuckin stupid.
I do think that women who undergo a (again prepared to believe it without need for proof – no please!!!!) ridiculously painful process that they really don’t want to just because a man they are sleeping with insists are also terminally fuckin stupid (almost as stupid as the blokes in question). There are very real and harmful pressures everywhere on women (and less so men) in this world to do bad things to themselves or even things that aren’t so bad but they just don’t happen to want to do. This is NOT one of them. Can you imagine what the bloody suffragettes would say to some woman who says: ‘my front bottom hurts and I didn’t want to do it, but my boyfriend said I should’.
NO NO NO – this is about people being stupid. Did they sell their freewill on the way to the waxing shop? If they did, I bet they didn’t get much for it. -
Violet says:
The problem, Richard, is one of social expectations. The woman who wrote the letter to Salon has no desire to wax and doesn’t feel that she should have to. It’s the guys she’s dating. All of them, apparently: expecting a woman to shave is apparently de rigeur these days. Certainly there are more earth-shattering things to worry about, but finding love — or just getting laid — is pretty high on most people’s list of personal priorities. It would be great if this woman could pop into a time machine, or change nationalities, or something like that so that her search for a lover wouldn’t founder on this absurd expectation that women be as hairless as babies. But she can’t very well do that, can she?
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richard cherry says:
I don’t believe her!
NO! I just don’t – I know I have no evidence to the contrary but I don’t. So let’s work it out: she’s getting it on with a new partner, he glances momentarily her way, presses pause on the porn channel and says primly: ‘Hmm, wax it or I am so not going to shag you!’. She leaves in tears and vows to find a good man who will appreciate her in all her hersute (sic) glory only to have the episode replayed endlessly with a parade of hot porn-obsessed young shavers (as ’twere). She just can’t get any because all the young men she meets are so under the influence of porn imagery that they turn down sex if there is a wisp of hair in the frame.
Anyone else smelling a fish? (suspended entendre…) Perhaps the fact of writing a letter to Salon (which seems so good I will just have to check it out) is a hint. -
will says:
I am not buying it either.
I have researched this issu extensively. Less than one percent of men have turned down sex or dumped a woman because she was not shaved or waxed bald.
Do you like hair?
I do not hear about a lot of women eagerly searching for men with hairy backs.
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Chris Clarke says:
I do not hear about a lot of women eagerly searching for men with hairy backs.
In fact, back hair is the physical attribute that even tattooed, fat-acceptance-activist hairy-lipped women with alopecia and their allies can revile. Back hair hatred is routine even among the painfully PC.
Pisses me off.
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meret says:
This is one of my peeves. The shaving thing – and women being expected to be like porn “stars”.
One thing that I’ve noticed from these types of discussions is that very few men are able to get the concept of the objectification of women – and how various cultural type influencers like porn turn (all) women into a commodity. So many men learn that point of view and refuse to consider any other way of looking at it. They think the argument is all about sexual “freedom” or something.
After a similar discussion elsewhere – it occurred to me that the culture is encouraging everyone to sink to the lowest common denominator. Where in the past – it may have been the working class attitude that elevated men for being obnoxious and rude and “honest” about their misogyny – the sign of a “real” man – now it’s getting to be normal.
At Salon, even. It’s becoming quite the industry.
And women are expected to act like it (misogyny) is nothing.
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Z says:
This made me laugh:
“You wouldn’t dump a guy who asks you to put your hair up instead of wearing it down. Why dump men who prefer a closely groomed pubic region over a haphazard, wild bush?”
Actually – I *would* dump a guy who asked me to put my hair up instead of wearing it down. Where the fuck do guys get off on telling women how to ‘BE’ all the time?? In the past I have also told guys to piss off if they started asking me to ‘wear a skirt instead of pants’ etc.
I am my own person. Not an f’ing dress-up doll for some insecure loser.
Z
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Z says:
“I have researched this issu extensively. Less than one percent of men have turned down sex or dumped a woman because she was not shaved or waxed bald.
Do you like hair?
I do not hear about a lot of women eagerly searching for men with hairy backs.”
This argument is not even logical. The fact is – men are ‘allowed’ a hairy pubic region and women are seemingly NOT.
And ‘Will’:
“Now that I have thought about this, you are correct. We should have just remembered are early training:
“Sugar and spice and everything nice, That´s what little girls are made of. Snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails, That´s what little boys are made of”
Women are good. Men are evil. Got it.”
You expect anybody to feel sorry for you??? People are saying that WOMEN deserve to be treated as more than objects and here you feeling so damn DEFENSIVE that you resort to pathetic ‘woe is me, *I* am the one who is oppressed’ rubbish?? You actually tried to make this about YOU????
This kind of bullshit behaviour will never cease to amaze me.
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will says:
Z:
Why should I listen to you when you cannot even spell behavior correctly?
Can’t I be oppressed too? Why does Violet get to have all the fun?
Everybody laughs at hairy back men! Why is it ok to pick on me all the time??!?!?!?!!?? It isnt fair, I tell you!
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Violet says:
Will, I don’t think I’d go with the spelling argument if I were you. Not your strong suit.
One thing that I’ve noticed from these types of discussions is that very few men are able to get the concept of the objectification of women – and how various cultural type influencers like porn turn (all) women into a commodity.
What’s especially disheartening is that it seems much worse among younger guys. At least educated men my age (40ish) have been exposed to feminism and have some grasp of the concepts of socialization, sexism, objectification, etc. These asswipes in their 20s — if Salon is any indication — have no clue. Never heard of any of it. The stupidity is breathtaking.
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will says:
Violet:
Why do you ruin my posts??!??!?
Have you considered that younger guys might be used to younger girls? And that the younger girls prefer to be shaved clean not because of porn but because they dislike hair?
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Z says:
hahahaha
Where I come from, Will, YOUR spelling of the word ‘behaviour’ would be considered ‘wrong’.
We also spell it ‘colour’, not ‘color’.
On another note, I had the debate about spelling etc in the Mensa E-group I am part of when somebody took it upon themselves to belittle another member for spelling incorrectly. My point was that you don’t have to be good at spelling or grammar in order to have something important/’valid’ to say.
Most of the other members agreed with me.
Take care,
Z
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will says:
As long as you spell labor correctly….
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Soft says:
I think the keyword here is compromise. If a dude was willing to make a brazillian a deal-breaker, uhhh buh-vye..That’s why doubleAA batteries exist. Wax there, I don’t think so, I can’t stand my eyebrows being done, YEEEEOUCH.. Shave it maybe, if nothing else because self stimulation with the extra sensitivity of a newly revealed uhh..umm.. pleasure pocket is pretty sweet. So as long as you have the time or inclination to manage it by shaving, or willing to take a time out for the prickly regrowth period..Sorry for the long reply.
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janetintexas says:
Wowza wowza! I have been married 31 years and I had no idea this debate/conflict of shaving/not shaving has been going on. My husband loves me just the way I am — gloriously hairy and all. I am going to Jamaica next week, and after reading this trash I am seriously considering going “au naturale” on the beaches to show the young guys how a real woman really looks, because apparently they don’t know any more, and they don’t get to see it. Bare pussies seem kind of creepy to me — do the men who like this really want little girls? They are the ones hiding something — and that something is not pretty.
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Z says:
janetintexas — you rock! :D
My husband loves me just the way I am too.
And I have also wondered about the paedophilic aspect of this issue.
Take care :)
Z
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Julia says:
If I recall correctly, Freud said that women’s only contribution to history was weaving – invented because women were ashamed of their gash and so wove their pubic hair together to cover it.
Gotta love it.
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will says:
Janetintexas has the right idea.
Let’s all throw away our patriarchy-loving razors!
No More Shaving!
God made us hairy, so let’s stay hairy!
I sure wouldnt date any woman who asked me not to have a large hairy beard, moustache, ear hair, and long hairs growing out of my nose. How dare she?!?!??!?
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alyx says:
I suggest all the male commenters on this thread who think facial hair removal is comparable to Brazilian Wax Torture book themselves in to the beautician for a back, crack & sack wax.
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will says:
Is it
1. the request or sugestion for hair removal
or
2. the type of request due to the pain
and
3. Are the negative comments focused on any hair removal, partial hair removal, or going totally bald?
4. Should the comments be limited to men or women who have actually tried waxing?
I guess the assumption is that all people find it intolerably painful and that only women have ever had any sort of waxing. I would be curious as to how many of the commenters have actually gone to a professional waxer.
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tevez says:
In response to this:
“Women want love, passion, and relationship with other human beings; men want inflatable dolls.”
As a 37 year old man who’s been on the NYC dating scene for a few years, I can personally attest to the fact that women do not want “love, passion, and relationship with other human beings.”
I can’t tell if your comment was facetious or not, so I’ll leave it at that unless otherwise requested.
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cicely says:
If a lover told me they wouldn’t have sex with me if I didn’t wax or trim I’d tell them to piss off. Same if they told me I should wear my hair up – or whatever – if it wasn’t something I would choose to do. Having said that – many years ago my lesbian partner suggested we both trim our pubes, and we did. I’ve been trimming off and on ;) ever since, because I choose to. (I’d never wax though – too painful maybe, but more importantly not an effect I’m interested in for no particular reason except that it doesn’t appeal. I realise it might to others.)
The thing is though – having just watched a four hour (over two nights) tv program about sex trafficking, and having just heard about yet another gang rape here in OZ, it never ceases to amaze me either how vast legions of men from all walks of life have absolutely no regard for the individual humanity of women and children while said men are in pursuit of their own individual sexual satisfaction, money, male bonding or whatever – and this newish apparently trendy and ‘group’ objectification demand does have to be considered in that whole context, which the above didn’t for me, personally.
My point is that I’ve trimmed, dyed my hair, even worn a formal dress and high heels on one memorable occasion, etc, etc, to please a lesbian partner – but these things always felt like mutual adventures, between the two of us ‘alone’ i.e. not occurring in the context of the relative status of women and men in society. Without being smug about it I have to say that this is an aspect of being a lesbian that I’ve always felt enormously grateful for and happy about. (Excepting all the feminist sex wars crap where problems that didn’t actually exist were (are?) said to exist)
Overall, though, how do we seperate ‘women as sex class’ objectification from objectifications that aren’t harmful or disrespectful at all because they’re mutually agreed upon and entered into between one man and one woman, for pleasure? Well, the language and tone of the public conversation at Salon gives a lot away, obviously re ‘I’m entitled to make the rules here’. No, sorry, incorrect.
Anybody think these men’s demands are starting to sound a little shrill? Hopefully anyway. See, I think we just carry on empowering women more and more – economically and every which way until every man has to depend on himself and his own best character and personality attributes to attract any woman at all and have a mature and equal relationship with her. Positive news on that front: The fastest growing demographic in Australia and Asia and some other countries I can’t remember off-hand is single households – and apparently the group contributing most to this growth is economically independent women. And they’re happy about it. Sexually autonomous women should be multiplying too. It’s only a matter of time before these male imperatives look to most people the same way they look to the men and women on this thread. Bring it on!
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manxome says:
Dating “scene”? Yeesh.
Will, nice to see you addressing the topic of the thread! Now I know how many times your incessant “flirtations” have to be ignored before you get a clue.
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manxome says:
Oh yeah, on to the answers.
Is it
1. the request or sugestion for hair removalYeah.
Whew! Glad that’s settled, because:
Are the negative comments focused on any hair removal, partial hair removal, or going totally bald?
Should the comments be limited to men or women who have actually tried waxing?
I would be curious as to how many of the commenters have actually gone to a professional waxer.
really isn’t the point.
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will says:
Manxome:
Do you not make any suggestions or requests about grooming to your significant other?
My one serious point at 5 addressed the main topic.
Within the confines of a respectful relationship, there isnt anything wrong with making requests or suggestions to your significant other.
The problem is people who are assholes. An asshole is going to be an asshole no matter what the topic is. I do not see where expressing a preference about this particular grooming makes one an asshole any more than it would if you expressed a preference about any sexual topic.
As far as flirting, I wasnt aware that I had been flirting with anyone in this thread.
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alyx says:
The fastest growing demographic in Australia and Asia and some other countries I can’t remember off-hand is single households – and apparently the group contributing most to this growth is economically independent women. And they’re happy about it. Sexually autonomous women should be multiplying too.
Where’d you read that? I don’t mean to put you on the spot, Cicely, but as fantastic as that sounds, I have a hard time believing it.
This might be the case for GenXers. How I wish it were true for younger women~ My friends are all hurling themselves towards marriage like lemmings off a rocky outcrop. Seems I can’t go a day without hearing about someone’s engagement, or having a damn bridal magazine shoved in my face. And these are women aged 22, 21, even 20 years old. Apparently, Tradition is the new Transgression for people in my age group.
‘Right-fucking-on’ to this:
If a lover told me they wouldn’t have sex with me if I didn’t wax or trim I’d tell them to piss off.
And Will:
Do you not make any suggestions or requests about grooming to your significant other?
Nope. What your partner does with his or her bod is their business, imho. I haven’t been crazy about things partners have had done to their bodies in the past, but as long as they’re happy, I will be too.
What everyone’s getting so pissed off at is the expectation that women will do these things. Even if some women don’t find Brazilians terribly painful, women as a group are still expected to invest a lot of time and money in a lot of beauty practices that just aren’t necessary. And there’s simply no reciprocal expectation for men.
Unless Ralph and FHM are now telling men how empowering it is to have a nutsack wax and no-one told me.
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alyx says:
What your partner does with his or her bod is their business, imho. I haven’t been crazy about things partners have had done to their bodies in the past, but as long as they’re happy, I will be too
Ok, I know I’m going to have top clarify that, ‘cuz I can see how it lends itself to a lot stupid responses.
No, I wouldn’t want my partner to get breast implants, or have any cosmetic surgery procedure. But I don’t think this would be something I’d ever have to worry about, because 1) They’d never be able to afford it anyway, and 2) They’d find the idea of submitting to the scalpel for the purposes of looking like the porny patriarchal sexbot ideal as ideologically repugnant as I do. :)
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will says:
“If a lover told me they wouldn’t have sex with me if I didn’t wax or trim I’d tell them to piss off.”
Does this kind of go without saying?
Certainly, there are people who allow themselves to get pushed around by jerks like that. But, I suspect virtually every intelligent person would agree that the proper response is to tell that person to take a hike.
I thought that message went without saying.
As far as an expectation to be waxed clean, I simply do not think it exists except in the minds of a few Tucker Max followers perhaps.
I do suspect that there is an expectation to not have hair protruding from the sides of a bathing suit.
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foilwoman says:
My position on this is if someone wants a prepubescent-looking partner (body hair being a marker for testoterone and a sex drive) that’s telling me something. It’s telling me “Don’t fuck this bozo.” He’ll find a real hot 12-year old and spend a lot of time explaining his preference in the slammer. Men say these preferences are due to the traits that make a woman fertile, but it’s just not so. In a natural world, a hairless female has not yet been through the onset of menarche and is thus probably infertile. So: men and women who prefer hairless partners, my question is “What’s so damn threatening about adult sexuality?”
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Sam says:
How do I love alyx? Let me count the ways.
1. back
2. crack
3. sack
4. wax -
cicely says:
alyx quotes cicely:
‘The fastest growing demographic in Australia and Asia and some other countries I can’t remember off-hand is single households – and apparently the group contributing most to this growth is economically independent women. And they’re happy about it. Sexually autonomous women should be multiplying too.’
and asks: Where’d you read that? I don’t mean to put you on the spot, Cicely, but as fantastic as that sounds, I have a hard time believing it.
I didn’t expect to be on the spot since I generally hoard information, but I seem to have accidentally thrown this out. Grrr… Anyways, alyx, I read it in The Weekend Magazine, which is a weekly insert in Australia’s national newspaper, The Australian. Maybe another Oz dweller saw it too. The article was advertised on the front page and entitled ‘Single And Loving It.’
I posted the info on feministe in a conversation about male behaviour, and another poster added to it. She wrote that she has a friend who is a social anthropologist and this friend had told her that this is a trend across Asia too, plus the other country or countries I couldn’t remember. You know, I also remember from years ago a happiness or contentment scale which had married men as the happiest and most content, single women next, while single men and married women were the least happy with their lot, on average. No surprises there, I felt, but maybe single women will even move ahead of married men on the happiness scale as time goes on, unless the institution of marriage undergoes some changes, which is of course a possiblity too.
Might also be interesting to add to this conversation a Time Magazine article I read last year. It was about a huge phenomenon sweeping across Asia (South Korea, China, Hong Kong – maybe others too) which is men spending lots of money and time on fashion and personal grooming, because women are demanding it. Personal and beauty product companies are no doubt fueling this too – since the female market is pretty saturated. I’ve definitely noticed an increase in advertising for male personal care and beauty products in Australia too. I think the whole topic has to be kept in perspective and, as has been mentioned here, it’s not so much about the activity as the *expectation* and the way it’s conveyed. That’s what I’m thinking anyway. Humans have been adorning and beautifying themselves since year dot, always some more than others, and definitely the expectations have been way, way more of a burden on women – to meet male expectations – than the other way around. Women should start saying ‘After you…’ more.
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Violet says:
Will, do you actually imagine that men are under the same pressure as women to be sexually attractive and to deform their bodies if necessary to do so? You cannot possibly be that clueless. This is basic stuff, Gender Studies 101. I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate.
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Violet says:
alyx said:
What everyone’s getting so pissed off at is the expectation that women will do these things. Even if some women don’t find Brazilians terribly painful, women as a group are still expected to invest a lot of time and money in a lot of beauty practices that just aren’t necessary. And there’s simply no reciprocal expectation for men.Just in passing — is it humanly possible for anyone to not find a Brazilian painful? Seriously, we’re talking about some of the most sensitive areas on the human body.
Anyway, I’m reminded of something I just read the other day about the challenges for male novelists in writing female characters and vice versa. One of the points made was that (paraphrasing from memory): men don’t realize that most women are wracked with self-doubt and insecurity when they look in the mirror, while women don’t realize that most men look in the mirror and like what they see.
I remember a lover I had once who thought he looked great. Actually he was very average and with a very average body, but he thought he looked like Michaelangelo’s David. He even told me he looked like Michaelangelo’s David. I’ve also made a habit of asking my male friends how they get over the nervousness of disrobing for the first time with a new lover (a huge fear for most women). Every single man I’ve ever asked that has said, “What nervousness? I look fine.”
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Mandos says:
Are you sure that’s not bravado? Because, uhhh, men have been known to lie about that sort of thing to women, n’est-ce pas?
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tevez says:
In response to: “Every single man I’ve ever asked that has said, “What nervousness? I look fine.”
That’s because men are taught from an early age not to admit vulnerability, especially not to women. There are a whole lot more women who are turned on by confidence than who are turned on by vulnerability (or honesty, for that matter).
Or to be more succinct: they’re lying to you.
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will says:
“Will, do you actually imagine that men are under the same pressure as women to be sexually attractive and to deform their bodies if necessary to do so? You cannot possibly be that clueless. This is basic stuff, Gender Studies 101. I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate.”
Who me? Never!
I will have to ask my Brazilian waxing professionals whether they have seen an increase in male clients.
I suspect that more and more women are making waxing a condition of blow jobs.
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Violet says:
Are you sure that’s not bravado?
Well, one of the men I asked was my husband, to whom I had been married for many years. And his response was the same as the responses I’ve gotten from male friends. The attitude wasn’t boastful; more like bewilderment. Like, who has time to even think about being embarrassed when you’re about to get laid?
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Violet says:
Hey, tevez — the Nice Guy™ crap is pissing me off. Knock it off.
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tevez says:
“the Nice Guy™ crap is pissing me off”
OK. I’ll try again:
All of your opinions are absolutely right, Violet. We men hate romance. We hate relationships with other human beings. Life as a man is easy; that’s why we’re such happy people, why we never commit crimes or act self destructively.
Feel better now?
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Violet says:
All of my opinions? You’ve been reading this blog for months, so you should know that I’m personally quite fond of men and have known a lot of great guys. This particular post is an example of hyperbolic rhetoric about men-as-a-group, and is one of the rare times when I’ve dispensed with my usual caveats about how this applies to asshole men, not all men, etc.
Unfortunately, your comments in this thread sound exactly like Nice Guy whining. You may have meant to engage in some deliberately hyperbolic rhetoric yourself, but what it sounds like is Nice Guy: you inform us that women don’t really want love, they don’t respect honesty, they just want some big shot dude…fill in the rest…all of which you can attest to from your Personal Dating Experience.
Nice Guys are, without exception, assholes with radioactive personalities. I’m just not interested in listening.
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will says:
Now I am really confused.
Do Nice Guys like never trimmed, hairy nether region women or waxed bald women?
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tevez says:
“Unfortunately, your comments in this thread sound exactly like Nice Guy whining”
True.
My experience has been that putative nice guys are angry, thin-skinned guys who have let a few bad experiences color their opinion of all women, and who are too unresilient (read: chickenshit) to move forward in life. I’d like to think that’s not true of me, but it probably is, at least more so than I wish.
Your comments on this, and every other, thread indicate that you’re filled with hatred. All you ever do is hate: religions, conservatives, men, etc. No sense of humor or irony, no compassion, no introspection. Just hatred and entitlement. I have a morbid fascination, so I keep tuning in. Same thing that keeps me reading Stephanie Klein.
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Violet says:
No sense of humor or irony, no compassion, no introspection.
You’re so right, tevez — that’s all I ever hear. My whole life, that’s what people have said about me: that Dr. Socks just has no sense of humor! She’s so unfunny! She has so little compassion and introspection!
Please go get yourself some Nice Guy therapy.
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alyx says:
Cicely said:
Maybe another Oz dweller saw it too.Hey cicely (*whispers*): I’m from Perth. :-P
I may’ve even read the article in question. The West often knicks stuff from The Australian, so it’s likely I got the abbreviated version.
Doc Socks said:
Just in passing — is it humanly possible for anyone to not find a Brazilian painful?
I’ve never had a Brazilian (or even a bikini line wax–forget ‘fur shorts’, I got me some fur overalls!), but I wouldn’t be suprised if some women didn’t. Women have to endure painful stuff in the name of beauty from a young age; we get used to it. And if a woman has had her pubic region waxed since she was a teenager, after so many years it’ll probably be no more painful than yanking off a bandaid. (fucking OUCH. I’m glad I haven’t scraped myself in a while, ‘cuz bandaid removal is painful shit. I have low pain tolerance.)
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Jim Deeny says:
Hey VS? I could sworn I posted something on here kast night?
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cicely says:
alyx says:
Hey cicely (whispers): I’m from Perth. :-P
Me too! What were the chances? Well, I’m from NZ, but been living here since ’89 except for a couple of stints in Melbourne and far North Queensland.
Nice to meet you.
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richard cherry says:
Sexually autonomous women should be multiplying too – well surely that’s up to them.
tevez – nice guy or nasty guy? Discuss.
socks rocks – mind you I totally disagree with her here.
I fear the thread is dead and we have been torturing its inert corpse since z in 15 nailed the entire ‘issue’. Though I have to agree with will about her spelling. (sorry, z, just being an english snob…)
and EXCUSE ME – was someone berating will for playing devil’s advocate? Waiter, my steak tartare is practically raw! Or put another way, that makes as much sense as having a go at john smith for being a raving loon, or michelle malkin for waxing her intimate parts for sex with the devil…Vi – don’t you have some weird pictures of ballet dancers or something we can really get our teeth into and sort out the world before people start dropping out of the sky in evil nail polish remover plots??? Pinky and the Brian was on in the UK this morning – it sounded horribly familiar.
enough enough enough -
will says:
Tevez:
Please do not blame Socks for her stuffiness and her failure to be funny.
She spent 4 years (maybe even 5) being taught that a wild and crazy night involved talking loudly in the library. A bad girl was one who did not follow the proper procedures for returning library books.
You really cannot blame her because it was still september when her daddy was quite surprised to find her with the working girls in the county jail.
Personally, I was smoking with the boys upstairs,
when I heard about the whole affair.I did not think the girl could be so cool.
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alyx says:
Nice to meet you.
:-) Likewise.
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cicely says:
richard cherry quotes cicely:
‘Sexually autonomous women should be multiplying too’
and replies – ‘well surely that’s up to them.’Yes, but not entirely, Richard. For a start men will be required to drop the madonna/whore – raunchy girl/prude dichotomies so that a sexually autonomous woman is judged no differently in society (including in the courts in rape cases) than a sexually autonomous man. It’s an illegitimate differentation. (is that a word?) As is women being more widely ‘expected’ to wax or whatever to please men than men are to do anything at all to their bodies to please women. What’s good for the goose etc. as has been more poetically written in this thread. The thing is it’s going to take a good deal of co-operation between men and women to turn this stuff around. Wouldn’t you agree?
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richard cherry says:
Cicely
My apologies.
The comment and indeed the post was entirely flippant – I just loved the irony of the word ‘multiplying’ (in its reproductive sense) being applied to that group – particularly given the endless fight for women to control their reproduction.
That aside, (and given that like you I’m not sure about whether anything is a legitimate differentiation or not) I really wouldn’t disagree with a word of what you write. I would say that what is BAD for the goose is bad for the gander because this particular gander is to chicken to wax anything other than lyrical – but I strongly support the right of women (and indeed everyone) not to be pressured into doing anything as painful as I imagine waxing to be if they don’t want to (and their right to do it if they wish).
I really did think z nailed it when she said ‘I would dump a guy who asked me to put my hair up instead of wearing it down’.
And I totally agree with your final comment about the need for co-operation. -
richard cherry says:
whoops typo ‘ this particular gander is TOO chicken….’
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sarah says:
bit late here, but i’ll go ahead and offer my opinion anyway.
i shave everywhere including the area in question. i’ve also waxed there and don’t find it particularly painful (and everyone else i know shaves or waxes as well, or at least trims). it’s a personal preference. some guys hate the fact that i shave and prefer hair down there and some love it, but that’s really not on my mind when i do it. it makes ME feel sexier and hornier. as does the hair, occassionally. it’s a mood thing. i also prefer my men to trim their pubes, because getting hair in your mouth is no fun.
that said, if a guy gave me an ultimatum (to either keep the hair or shave it), he’d be kicked out immediately. but if my long-term partner specified a preference, i would probably keep it in mind but wouldn’t necessarily prioritize it.
i think this has a lot to do with living in ‘the west’ (which i don’t – i’m pakistani, in the middle east). just as men are conditioned by porn, women are also a bit too hung up on turning everything into a feminist issue. and sometimes, it’s not. i know most would disagree with me but i think this is between the couple, and all that politics and over-analysing of blow-jobs, sex, and hair should really not even come up in a healthy relationship between two people.
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sarah says:
that said, the stuff on salon is incredibly stupid. waxing the hair off is not part of personal grooming and can’t be compared to clipping nails. and dumping a guy because he won’t have sex with you unless you change YOUR personal preference (which is the only bit the letter writer got right) is perfectly valid. what sorta guy turns down sex because of pubes anyway?
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will says:
“shave everywhere including the area in question. i’ve also waxed there and don’t find it particularly painful (and everyone else i know shaves or waxes as well, or at least trims). it’s a personal preference. some guys hate the fact that i shave and prefer hair down there and some love it, but that’s really not on my mind when i do it. it makes ME feel sexier and hornier”
Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. Clearly, you are a tool of the patriarchy and you do not even know it. Such a shame.
This is just like those poor kids in the sixties who didnt realize that all the bad things that Elvis was causing with that rock and roll music.
Sarah, don’t you see??!?!? Because the ….well, the slightly older people never shaved. Therefore, you shouldn’t shave either.
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kelly says:
When you get past menopause, many women go bald in any case, due to lack of hormones.
So you can do it with a hairless woman just like grandma, I guess.
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cicely says:
richard cherry says:
Cicely
My apologies.
The comment and indeed the post was entirely flippant – I just loved the irony of the word ‘multiplying’ (in its reproductive sense) being applied to that group – particularly given the endless fight for women to control their reproduction.Oh dear. Blog humour often goes straight through to the keeper for me, I’m afraid. I see it now – thankyou…:P
And for ‘differentiation’. Seems like an un-necessarily long word to me, but there you go.
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Violet says:
just as men are conditioned by porn, women are also a bit too hung up on turning everything into a feminist issue.
This is so true. Believing in equal rights for all human beings is very much like whacking off obsessively to porn. And certainly one of the major problems in the world is the excessive awareness of how female humans are oppressed by society. Thanks for setting us straight, Sarah!
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sarah says:
violet,
actually i wasn’t referring to them enjoying porn by whacking off to it, i was referring to men’s fantasies and ideas for sexual positions etc coming from watching too much porn. and although i admit my sentence was pretty badly constructed (was in a hurry cause i was at the office), i believe in equal rights for men and women as much as any feminist does but i prefer not to think everything in my life (including shaving my goddamn pubes) has to be turned into an ‘i am an oppressed female’ issue and i must be doing this only cause society or men expect me to and they want me to do this because they’re either pedophiles or have been conditioned by porn. yes, sometimes there is a connection between the two and i think we’re smart enough to tell there is and many a times, there is NO connection. i choose to lead my life free of such prejudice against every man, automatically assuming the worst. if a man states he doesn’t like pubes, its very similar to me expressing a distaste for back hair – it isn’t necessarily a feminist issue nor because he likes little girls. sure, awareness is good. i was brought up in a muslim country and live in an arab one, and believe me, you don’t have a clue about oppression unless you grew up where i did. but i’m certainly not thinking about the poor women in saudi in abayahs and their terrible government or their asshole husbands who marry three other women and screw their maids and then beat the shit out of each, when i make a decision in the morning ‘to shave or not to shave’. honestly, to me, that is just a bit too much. i’ll go volunteer at the shelter, fight the cause and stand up for their rights but none of that enters into my bedroom, where i choose to give a blowjob if i feel like it and braid my pubes if i fancy it.
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Violet says:
Sarah: The issue is not what anyone chooses to do. You can shave your entire body and paint yourself blue for all I care. The issue is the social pressure on women to conform to a sexbot standard.
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appletree » Blog Archive » Thursday Links: Dad Edition says:
[...] Dr. Violent Socks of Reclusive Leftist discusses the latest in painful beauty regimens: the Brazilian bikini wax. Specifically, she takes on the men who say that getting a wax is no big deal, so women should just get them if their partners request it. [...]
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richard cherry says:
Cicely – don’t worry there are many around who seem unable to understand my jokes – whether in blog format or otherwise; well, I assume they don’t understand because they don’t laugh and I KNOW what I’m saying is funny.
and anyway: ‘straight through to the keeper’ – a cricket reference; I love you! Had forgotten you were a Kiwi in exile rather than a septic. -
richard cherry says:
can’t believe I missed this one, Vi. The point right at the start of this that whether you go for a ‘haphazard, wild bush’ is personal preference – tell that to the endless victims of his foreign policy.
Let’s make waxing Dubbya compulsory. -
cicely says:
Had forgotten you were a Kiwi in exile rather than a septic.
Rather than a what? Lead on, Richard, because I won’t pretend I know what one of those is… should I?
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richard cherry says:
sorry, it’s rather juvenile british rhyming slang: septic tank…and a generally disparaging term for our american cousins and hosts.
you’re just lucky nothing rhymes with kiwi (well apart from the obvious) -
Witchy-Woo’s Wednedsay Wow… « Well I’ll Go To The Foot Of My Stairs… says:
[...] …this week is a total scream – in more ways than one. Dr Socks at Reclusive Leftist is in a bad mood because of the stupidity of men as illustrated by quotes from letter writers at Salon about female pubic waxing.Her post is pertinent in itself and has inspired some fabulous comments from Manxome and Dr Socks herself. There are eight comments there at the time of writing this – undoubtedly there will be more before too long. [...]
