Once more into the muck
I admire Trish Wilson’s fortitude. She’s been dealing with Fathers’ Rights Activists for years, exposing and refuting their lies, and I don’t know how she stands it. Every time I encounter the FRA slime machine I feel like I need a shower.
The latest news from Trish is actually very good: two influential legal publications have come out strongly against Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS), a non-existent psychiatric disorder that was invented by a crank and is popular with abusive fathers who are trying to game the system. According to the proponents of PAS theory, when a child alleges abuse by her father, it’s evidence not of abuse but of “brainwashing” by the vindictive mother who has taught the child to hate her father and invent crazy stories of being molested. The correct response, according to PAS people, is to award custody to the father. You can see why abusive pedophilic fathers would be very fond of this theory.
Dr. Richard Gardner, the psychiatrist who invented PAS, believed that pedophilia was natural and that the real trauma came from hysterical overreaction by a court system that just didn’t understand a father’s need to boink his child. Here are a few quotes from his various ravings:
“There is a bit of pedophilia in every one of us.”
“He [the pedophile] has had bad luck with regard to the place and time he was born with regard to social attitudes toward pedophilia. However, these are not reasons to condemn himself.”
“Older children may be helped to appreciate that sexual encounters between an adult and a child are not universally considered to be reprehensible acts. The child might be told about other societies in which such behavior was and is considered normal. The child might be helped to appreciate the wisdom of Shakespeare’s Hamlet, who said, ‘Nothing’s either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.’”
If the sexual relationship is discovered, “the child is likely to fabricate so that the adult will be blamed for the initiation .”
Special care should be taken not alienate the child from the molesting parent. The removal of a pedophilic parent from the home “should only be seriously considered after all attempts at treatment of the pedophilia and rapprochement with the family have proven futile.”
“If the mother has reacted to the abuse in a hysterical fashion, or used it as an excuse for a campaign of denigration of the father, then the therapist does well to try and ’sober her up’…. Her hysterics…will contribute to the child’s feeling that a heinous crime has been committed and will thereby lessen the likelihood of any kind of rapprochement with the father. One has to do everything possible to help her put the “crime” in proper perspective. She has to be helped to appreciate that in most societies in the history of the world, such behavior was ubiquitous, and this is still the case.”
“It may be that one of the reasons the daughter turned toward the father is the impairment of the child’s relationship with the mother.”
“Her [the mother's] increased sexuality may lessen the need for her husband to return to their daughter for sexual gratification.”
In addition to defending acknowledged cases of pedophilia, Gardner published a bunch of articles and books pushing the idea that many reports of child abuse were really just false accusations, instances of the aforementioned Parental Alienation Syndrome. While no medical group ever recognized PAS as a real condition, the theory became very popular with certain divorced men and their lawyers. For twenty years PAS has been the strategy of choice for abusive and violent fathers trying to win custody disputes, and all too often they’ve succeeded. That’s why the news from Trish is so encouraging: finally legal groups like the American Bar Association are formally advising family court judges that PAS is junk science that should not be admissible in a courtroom.
Of course the Fathers’ Rights crowd aren’t backing down; PAS is one of their cherished tenets. Glenn Sacks continues to promote it as a real syndrome, and last year even launched a national campaign to prevent PBS from airing a documentary that exposed Parental Alienation Syndrome as bogus.
Okay, I really do need to go take a shower now.
58 Responses to “Once more into the muck”
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Infidel says:
Like much of what I read here “are you making this shit up?” is the page I’d put it under. Then I google Dr.Gardner and lo, his son says it was suicide. Dr.Gardner took pills and stabbed himself. Not just that but there are thousands of hits- tens of thousands and Dr.Gardner got rich selling instructions on desensitizing children to being subject to pedophillic fathers.
Are you making this shit up?
He charged $500.00 to present PAS to juries. Like what would the opposing attorney have to do to convince a jury he was nuts? Repeat what he said?July 18th, 2006 at 2:29 am EST -
Victoria Marinelli says:
Ahhhhhhh! I, too, need a shower now. And maybe some eyewash.
Sheesh.
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manxome says:
Eww eww eww. This calls for more than a shower. I’m gettin’ the power washer.
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Infidel says:
There are certain pheremones children exude which when presented to an adult male humanoid’s nasal passages and olfactory lobes, cause a chemical to be produced which catalizes the protien chains within the medulla oblangato. It becomes impossible for a man to resist the sexual urges to the degree that that man produces a seretonin like secretion in the Isles of Langerhan which combines with esther and forms lingets of soob. Now a good percentage of those adult males experience distaterea and phanges, an elongateel phlaxis not normally associated with libido. Dr.Gardener merely addressed the biological imbalance by introducing an illogical methodology.
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Mandos says:
Distaterea? lingets of soob?
Here’s one for the Juju File:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ.....p;n=283155
The reviews!
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Jimmy Ho says:
The shower may take longer than expected:
Dutch court rejects ban of paedophile party (Reuters).
Quote of note:
The Brotherly Love, Freedom and Diversity party (PNVD) was launched in May and campaigns for a cut in the age of consent from 16 to 12 and the legalisation of child pornography and sex with animals, provoking widespread outrage in the Netherlands.
(…)
The PNVD says it wants to lift the taboo on paedophilia which it said had intensified since the 1996 Marc Dutroux child abuse scandal in neighbouring Belgium.
(…)
The party wants to allow possession of child pornography and supports broadcasting pornography on daytime television, with only violent pornography limited to the late evening. It also wants youths aged 16 and up to be allowed to appear in pornographic films and prostitute themselves. -
will says:
I have not read the ABA portion, but isnt the Leadership Council simply a group of advocates who simply have formed a non-profit group to promote the views that they already had?
I do not know if they are right or wrong, but I would not assign more weight to their view simply because they have formed a non-profit to promote their views.
I will have to read the ABA journal. But that is a political organization influenced by various factions as well. Once again, I am not saying that they are wrong. I am just suggesting that you shouldnt view this as peer-reviewed research like you would something from the AMA Journal.
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Violet says:
via email, here’s a comment from Trish Wilson (she’s unable to post herself because of a mysterious technical glitch):
“I like thumbing my nose at FRsters. It’s like skeet shooting. It’s like teasing a junkyard dog with a stick through a fence. Those guys just get all bent out of shape, and give me more fodder to show how ugly they really are.
“PAS might be junk science, and it’s not accepted by the legal and psychiatric communities, but I think it ends up in court because people who use it make money off of it. They aren’t going to give up their cash cow easily. Once PAS is introduced, the PAS shrink who does the custody and psych. evaluations brings in several hundred dollars per hour, and that money is paid by both parents. Then there’s more therapy to “cure” mom of this “disorder”. Then, the court orders joint custody, and the parenting coordinators swoop in to make money “helping” mom and dad come up with parenting plans. It’s not going to go away until the cash cow goes away, and I don’t see that happening any time soon.
“I’m going to keep confronting fathers’ rights activists and showing them up for the asshats that they are. I see what you mean about needing a shower after having any contact with them. Suffice to say that I am very, very clean. ;) ”
Trish
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Violet says:
I have not read the ABA portion, but isnt the Leadership Council simply a group of advocates who simply have formed a non-profit group to promote the views that they already had?
Hey, Will.
The press release is from the Leadership Council, but it’s the information in the press release that I was applauding: that both the new edition of the Judges’ Guide from the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges and the new issue of the ABA’s Children’s Legal Rights Journal have come out against PAS. Aren’t those both influential publications? (I don’t really know, since I only work part-time as a divorce lawyer.) -
Violet says:
Mandos, looks like the FRAs freeped Amazon on that one.
Jimmy Ho — have you heard of NAMBLA? PNVD sounds like the Dutch version.
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will says:
Now you are a part-time lawyer? Wow, you keep sinking lower and lower.
Anything the ABA does is influential. My point is that it is also political.
But, I still need to read the journal.
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Violet says:
What about the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges? Does their Judges’ Guide carry a lot of weight?
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will says:
I would not know. I would imagine that it does.
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richard cherry says:
say what you like about all the bodies with complicated acronym names, but PAS seems a reasonable assumption: if my Dad had been fucking me (or slapping my mum around, for that matter) I’d be pretty bloody alienated. or have I misunderstood???
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will says:
you misunderstand.
One parent is alienating the other parent by claiming that the other parent abused the children. (simplistic version)
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Jimmy Ho says:
have you heard of NAMBLA? PNVD sounds like the Dutch version.
Well, NA/LA is clearly a model for them. The difference is that, in today’s Netherlands, what they ask for (the right to enslave fellow humans who “just happen” to be minors) looks merely like an extension of the existing system of sexual exploitation for profit.
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Jimmy Ho says:
What I mean is that, as long as it will be accepted that a 20 years old prostitute might have started when she was 13, those men will be able to justify their demand.
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Jimmy Ho says:
(By the way, I’m sorry if this constitutes a thread “hijack”; I thought the stomach-hurting news item was somehow relevant, but I don’t want to pull it off topic, so I will stop here.)
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Infidel says:
“There is a bit of pedophilia in every one of us.”
Judge, I would like to present in defence of my client the “FACT” that your father was a pedophile. Okay, not so you would notice, but to some degree. It is this inherent pedophilia which my client had more of. Rather than accept and adjust, his harlot wife alienated this unformed embryo of a child by instilling in him a distaste rather than an understanding and acceptance of the nuances of his fathers life. Remember Judge when you go to make your decision that you want to molest your child- we all do.
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flawedplan says:
Yay! You know I follow psych-related issues (thanks for the blogroll Violet) and it’s always bad news, nonstop wrongheaded injustice and crises, so this is a big happy reason to jump for joy. How it and similarly evil psychological theories manage to gain credibility is what fires me up, and I found, none to my suprise that there’s a well-known and well twisted female author promoting PAS too, Randi Krieger, runs the respectable and highly acclaimed “borderline personality disorder” conglomeration, “BPD Central” based on her misogynistic bestseller “Stop Walking on Eggshells.” So there is a list of all these PAS lawyers and activists at the BPD Central website, which is so twisted, since 80% of those labeled BPD are women, and this is what they find when they go looking for help (punishment, brainwashing, self-hate) for their “illness.”
So this Leadership Council decision is a win with broader implications, chalk one up for reason. One smattering of reason in a world of junk science, let’s hope it’s a trend, let’s turn it all around!
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Violet says:
(thanks for the blogroll Violet)
You’re quite welcome. I do agree with you to a great extent about the bogosity of psychiatry, its phenomenal cluelessness, and its history of torture worthy of the Marquis de Sade. I probably disagree with you (respectfully) on some things, like the value of certain modern drugs and the biological basis for some mental illness. The one thing I’m pretty sure of is that most psychiatrists have absolutely no idea what they’re doing and are flying blind, just as they have for the past century.
Look at how schizophrenia has been attributed to everything from repressed homosexuality to a rejecting mother to something that can be fixed with insulin shock, electrodes, or an icepick in the eye; to a dopamine imbalance, a virus, and now a genetic flaw. Nobody has any clue what’s actually going on. It’s highly debatable whether the collection of symptoms labeled schizophrenia even represents a single disorder. Nevertheless, the core symptoms of schizophrenia are real: delusions, hallucinations, gross thought disruption, etc. My own non-medical viewpoint is that there is probably an organic basis to these symptoms, given the fact that a) the incidence of schizophrenia is steady across cultures, and b) there is nothing that schizophrenia sufferers seem to have in common, except these symptoms. I think any sort of “psychological” explanation of schizophrenia just isn’t plausible at all.
Whoops, well, just hijacked my own thread.
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flawedplan says:
Wow, that blew me away.
I have to add to that then back on topic. I agree with everything you say, you are smart, Violet, you really understand and are a true scholar.
I am not anti-medication, meds saved my life. I’m not anti-anything, except the implications of current trends. I stand for inclusion of psycho-social factors as cause of mental illness, factors increasingly considered irrelevant.
The gene model of etiology is married to the psychopharm industry, and is ruling out the psycho-social (trauma, abuse, deprivation) model in real, concrete terms. When taking in stigma (genetically defective) and coercive “treatment” (dangerous, ineffective, personhood-wrecking chemical lobotomies) the rubber meets the road in a stone clusterfuck.
What’s missing in all this is the voice of “consumers.” Crazy people. That’s where I come in, complaining basically, a lot, and I encourage other miscreants to do the same.
Sorry for the hijack! Thanks for engaging these issues, you know I adore you.
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Txfeminist says:
“….. advocates who simply have formed a non-profit group to promote the views that they already had?”
aren’t most non-profits formed by advocates working on an issue they already had opinions about? why should that discredit them?
more importantly, I would look at the fact that those who are members of the Leadership Council are, in fact, highly informed experts in their fields. They have real publications in real peer-reviewed journals. They have done real bodies of research.
They are NOT the diploma-mill crackpots you get claiming to be “forensic experts” that work in many court appointments.
Take, for example, Dr. John Zervopoulos of our own local courts. While he is a licensed psychologist, and a JD, he did exactly ONE YEAR of work as a practicing psychologst before he put his shingle out as an expert custody evaluator. I’m sorry. That is unacceptable.
Based on the vast experience of the members of the leadership council versus guys like that — I’d be far more likely to respect the Leadership Council’s views on child sexual abuse. I mean wow, they have done research, studied thousands of cases, etc.
While Zervy had to pause, and say he’d “have to think about it” when asked if it would be a bad thing to let a man who’d molested his child have custody.
Oh, right. I guess he’s been reading Gardner.
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silverside says:
Hey Tex, I think I got ya beat. We have a custody evaluator who had no academic background in psychology at all. His degree is in PASTORAL COUNSELING (giving god advise???). He refused to contact me or speak to me at all, only talked to the ex, who of course fed him his usual line of bs. Of course he concluded from this that the ex should have custody. His name was M. Dean Patton and the judge who bought this line of crap was Willard Cass.
P.S. I gotta love this. My deadbeat abuser ex was described by Mr. Patton in an absolutely exquisite euphemism as having a “laid back lifestyle” and as as person who would be unhappy working in an office or factory. Isn’t he precious? I guess I’m just no good crap, ’cause I’m apparently not precious enough to be released from work obligations.
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will says:
TXF:
My point was simply that they are not more credible because they call themselves the Leadership Council. It appears that these people had already taken the position that PAS was bunk, so it really isn’t news when they form an organization to repeat the same position that they have previously taken as individuals.
We all tend to look more critically at the qualifications of those with whom we disagree and less critically at those with whom we agree.
I have never put a lot of stock in PAS as a syndrome per se. But I have certainly seen many cases where one parent is attempting to alienate the children from the other parent. In many of those cases, it is often the strategy to claim that the other parent is abusive or neglectful of the children.
Cases involving allegations of abuse of children are incredibly difficult. The court is faced with the question of whether the bitterness between the parties is due to abuse or whether the allegation of abuse is due to the bitterness between the parties.
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will says:
TXF:
I should also mention that I rarely see the result being an absolute denial of contact between the children and a parent, whether the court finds abuse or false allegation of abuse.
I think that I happen to practice in an area with excellent judges who realize that the world is made up of a lot more gray than black and white and that it takes a lot to totally block contact with a parent.
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txfeminist says:
hey, Silver– gollyeeee you do have me beat! That is crazy.
Will, we have argued about this before, but… the point is that
a) it’s not just that the leadership council is espousing one viewpoint or another - it’s that the The National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges and the American Bar Association’s Children’s Legal Rights Journal have published a statement, and a review– both against PAS.
and b) that whether one parent badmouths another , it’s NOT pathological behavior, it’s not a symptom of a disordered person, and it doesn’t require Gardner’s recommended absolute removal of the child from that parent. “Friendly Parent” statutes do well enough to caution parents who choose to speak poorly of their ex spouse in front of the children. Threat therapy, custody loss and permanent character assassination by pathologizing are extreme responses to say the least.
Lastly, I have never seen “Alienation” brought out in all its absurdity in court in anything but cases where one parent has made allegations of abuse on the part of the other parent. It’s repeatedly tossed up as a smokescreen to refute or invalidate the issue of abuse, and serves to paint a parent concerned for the child’s and/or their own safety as pathological. the fact of the matter is that parents who believe their child is being hurt may seem hysterical, but frankly that would be a normal reaction to evidence that the other parent is hurting that child. Same goes for battered women. Battered women who have been severely hurt by their ex are going to be extremely reluctant to turn their children over to the care of a person they have first hand knowledge of to be violent! It’s only logical! And yet, the behavior is classifed as abnormal, when it’s clearly a perfectly normal response to a very abnormal situation.
It’s silly to say that PAS is real because you think you’ve “seen” it. That’s not how clinical data is determined nor how behavioral pathologies are established. My husband is in neuropsychiatry, I know a thing or 2 about that process.
You have seen a parent badmouth another parent. You haven’t seen a “Syndrome” .
And there is a big difference between a parent who calls their ex “The Doofus” (or whatever) and a frightenened parent who has a reason to genuinely believe the other parent means to do harm to members of the immediate family.
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will says:
“It’s silly to say that PAS is real because you think you’ve “seen” it. That’s not how clinical data is determined nor how behavioral pathologies are established. My husband is in neuropsychiatry, I know a thing or 2 about that process.
You have seen a parent badmouth another parent. You haven’t seen a “Syndrome” .”
I agree with you. I havent seen a syndrome. That is why I said that I have seen alienation. Not a syndrome.
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flawedplan says:
will, it’s great to be critical but you’re on the wrong side man. You accept the veracity of medical jourals at face value, no, follow the money at Psychwatch which is an established and respected investigative blog documenting all manner of psychiatric perfidy–
Wednesday’s typical finding:
A report from UPI, Via Daily India, PhysOrg, and elsewhere (links at blog)
Another U.S. medical journal ethics case arose this week, this time involving Dr. Charles Nemeroff, the editor of the journal Neuropsychopharmacology.
Nemeroff, a well known psychiatrist, favorably reviewed a controversial new treatment for depression, only to later announce a correction will be published.
The Nashville, Tennessee based journal failed to cite the ties of the article’s eight academic authors to the company that makes the treatment — including the article’s lead author — Nemeroff, The Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday.
It was just the latest incident in which several medical journals neglected to identify relationships between researchers and companies that might benefit from positive research reports.
Last week, the Chicago-published Journal of the American Medical Association announced seven authors of a February paper on pregnancy depression neglected to reveal they were paid by the makers of antidepressants — the third such incident at JAMA this year, The Wall Street Journal said.
The Leadership Council rocks with credibility. Its president is Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at Temple University School of Medicine; Chairman of the American Psychiatric Association’s Task Force on Psychiatric Aspects of Violence. Past President, American Psychiatric Association, and of the American College of Psychiatrists.
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Violet says:
Slightly off-topic, but — have any of you ever worked in a hospital? I have. Many years ago when I was a struggling young thing, I worked for some doctors at a big-city hospital. It is amazing the presence drug companies have. It’s like no other vendor relationship I’ve ever seen in any setting.
All the samples, of course, are provided by the drug companies. But the entire hospital is floating in goodies that the drug reps bring, from pens to cups to paper supplies to jackets. The drug reps are there all the time — it seems like their job is basically to hang out and chat up the doctors and pass out gifts to everyone. They’re all dressed to the nines and drive fabulous cars and have the best cell phones and perfect hair. What do they actually do? Talk to the doctors and persuade them to prescribe the drugs they’re representing. That’s it. It’s a weird atmosphere, but after a while at a hospital you just get used to it. The drug reps are a fixture.
Put that alongside the enormous moola the drug companies spend on advertising (all media, both to the public and targeted to doctors), the conferences, the free trips, the Continuing Education sponsorships, yadeyadeyade, and you begin to realize just how wealthy Big Pharm is. The drug companies are SWIMMING in cash.
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will says:
Flawed:
His opinion is not more credible because he now heads an organization called the Leadership Council. That was my point.
I am not an advocate of PAS. And I am certainly not an advocate of permanently terminating children’s contact with either parent unless you have SERIOUS ongoing problems.
Violet:
I have had the same experience. The drug companies and the hospitals are swimming in cash. The drug reps make tons of money and dish out goodies in a blatent and effective effort to get docs to prescribe their drug.
The direct advertising to consumers is just as effective. The patient doesnt care what the doctors says nearly as much as that great drug they saw advertised.
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flawedplan says:
Yes, they are so in bed together, visit a shrink regularly you start finding high-quality pens and notepads and miscellaneous doodads cluttering up your purse bearing the logos, Prozac, Abilify, Serzone, etc.
I’ve depended on those sample drugs myself, they’re handed out to low-income psychotics at the free clinic and they halt psychosis in its tracks. So would heroin, so would killing me so no, this isn’t an endorsement. What you’re talking about is part of the fight, it’s all tied together with the debunking of the trauma model, and why organizations like the Leadership Council exist.
Back when I had insurance and could afford private health care I’d see those slick, fast-talking reps in my docs office, bringing their fancy food (raw shrimp and pastries) and hip, used car salesman bonhomie. Lots of jokes and Ivy-league irony behind that door. It’s a weird vibe to encounter when you are in babbling distress and un-hygienic self-neglect.
But most people who see shrinks aren’t in significant distress, they’re functional neurotics tweaking their personalities for cosmetic purposes; nailbiters, seeking better living through chemicals. They scared me, but to them I am invisible.
People who suffer severe and persistent mental illness need old school psychiatry too, but it’s been replaced by “neuropsychiatry”, big pharma is running the show, and it’s a cesspit. Reuters, April this year:
WASHINGTON - Most of the experts who wrote the manual widely used to diagnose mental illness have had financial ties to drug makers such as research funding or stock holdings, U.S. researchers said on Thursday.
Writing in a new study, they called for full disclosure of the relationships between companies and the medical experts on panels that craft future editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, known as the DSM.
“Transparency is especially important when there are multiple and continuous financial relationships between panel members and the pharmaceutical industry, because of the greater likelihood that the drug industry may be exerting an undue influence,” the researchers wrote in a study to be published in the journal Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics.
The study found 56 percent of 170 psychiatric experts who worked on the most recent edition, published in 1994, had at least one financial link to a drug maker at some point from 1989 through 2004. The relationships included speaking or consulting fees, ownership of company stock, payment for gifts and travel and funding for research.
All of the experts who developed sections defining mood disorders, schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders had such links, the study said.
During Katrina the mentally ill were turned away from emergency shelters en masse. Could not get food or shelter.
They should just sterilyze us, get it over with.
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flawedplan says:
Will, the advisory board of the Leadership Council is made up of legal scholars, behavioral scientists, and department heads at major universities; respected and unvilified top guns in the field of psychiatry who specialize in trauma, whether you like it or not. Click a link, man, do some research.
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manxome says:
Violet:
Slightly off-topic, but — have any of you ever worked in a hospital? I have. Many years ago when I was a struggling young thing, I worked for some doctors at a big-city hospital. It is amazing the presence drug companies have. It’s like no other vendor relationship I’ve ever seen in any setting.
Heck, I can just go to my PCP and see that. They go in and come out of the back while you wait 40 inutes past your appointment time. They are sitting in chairs in the back when you do finally get called back. They are chatting it up at a station in the back with the doc while you are sitting in your room box waiting for someone to come in and do something and hearing it all through the door. Last time I went, he apparently adopted a policy to bring it under control. A policy that makes them sign up first come first served - only 6 a day! My appointment was the same time as the second “shift”, and I can’t tell you how many came in the door, saw that the list was already filled, and had to stroll back out in their spiked heels. Know what would be ultrakeencoolies? If patients got as much attention. But patients don’t tend to come in flashing their gams with a glow painted on. No, they cough and puke, so they only get 2 minutes of his time.
flawedplan:
Yes, they are so in bed together, visit a shrink regularly you start finding high-quality pens and notepads and miscellaneous doodads cluttering up your purse bearing the logos, Prozac, Abilify, Serzone, etc.
P.S. to ex-psychopharmacologist: It’s cool that I can always know what time it is, not matter what wall I’m looking at, but perhaps instead of sticking every freebie pharma clock up on your walls, you could rotate them? You know, one week it’s Zoloft, the next it’s Zyprexa, that sort of thing. You can even schedule appointments by them: “You need to come back half past Serzone.” It can also help in recall: “When was the last time you were here manic as hell?” “That was during Abilify clock week, doc.”
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will says:
Flawed:
You are missing my point. The issue was whether that opinion was new event. My point is that, the Leadership Council’s opinion is not a new event because the principals were already advocating that opinion.In other words, you and I are advocates for a certain position. Then, we organize ourselves into a body called “Flawed Council.” Flawed Council’s press release stating its position should not come as a surprise to you.
You used to see this kind of thing with the Tobacco Industry.
I am not suggesting that their opinion is wrong, just that it isnt new.
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Violet says:
I am not suggesting that their opinion is wrong, just that it isnt new.
Right, but the new thing was the announcement about the ABA journal and the National Council of Judges. That was the purpose of the press release, to announce that these two publications had taken a stand against PAS.
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Violet says:
Manx and FP:
For years my home coffee cup collection consisted entirely of freebies from the hospital. Cream or sugar? Would you like that in the Zoloft, the Seldane, or the Cardizem?
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will says:
Not to be too picky, but a brief look at both of those places indicates the following:
1. Claire Dalton was the principal author of the NCJF Judge’s handbook. She is a self described “feminist law professor” who heads the Domestic Violence Project at Northeastern School of Law.
2. The ABA Children’s Legal Rights Journal appears to be primarily published by the Loyola Law Students. (Most law schools have a law review of some kind.)
3. Just a quick look at the Leadership Council shows that one of the Executive Directors is an adjunct professor at Loyola.
I have just downloaded the Judges handbook, so I will read it later. I do not have a copy of the Children’s Legal Rights Journal.
But, I will repeat my point. It is not amazing news when someone whose views are well-known issues a press release repeating the same views that they have always had.
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will says:
As a sidenote, I cannot believe that I wasted my time looking that up when I could care less about PAS.
But I guess I have to do something to get TXF and VS riled up.
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flawedplan says:
Actually Will I think I do see what you’re saying now, and stand corrected, your perspective is more critical than my own, and am now at a complete loss as to the value of this press release.
I guess the question is, Does the guidebook for judges by the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges actually guide judges or is it just another social justice pleading text? Any way to measure its impact? And if we can’t measure its influence, does that mean its publication is an exercise in conceit and futility?
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Infidel says:
Conceit and futility give us all that society has to offer individuals. Think of the last time you took a survey. Do you count? Well yes but only in so much as your contribution to an average. Conceit of leaders, judges, intellectuals to think they know what is good or right for the people and how futile it would be to know if you could, not think, but know what is good or right for every individual. Still I can’t think of PAS as any more credible than submitting Christ’s testimony in a vision for the purpose of ameliorating damage to children and litigating divorce.
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Txfeminist says:
It’s unfortunate when family law attorneys don’t give a hoot about PAS, because its junk science that ruins the lives of so many children, and it results in sending them off to a childhood sentence of living with an abusive parent.
:-(
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will says:
“It’s unfortunate when family law attorneys don’t give a hoot about PAS, because its junk science that ruins the lives of so many children, and it results in sending them off to a childhood sentence of living with an abusive parent.”
Or perhaps it just isnt used in the area where they practice.
I’ve represented plenty of people who have been abused. I’ve represented plenty of people who have been alleged to be abusers. In these cases, the courts have doen their best to determine what actually has happened and what is in the children’s best interest.
I havent seen a judge terminate visitation based on a syndrone yet. I have not seen a judge terminate visitation based on one or two allegations that have not been determined to be valid. The trouble comes when the parent persists in making false allegations or repeatedly blows things out of preportion. (A skinned knee becomes a trip to the emergency room in an ambulance with the parent repeatedly telling the child that he/she has been abused by the other parent.)
These type of parents are not labeled PAS but rather the court often finds that they are not able to accurately assess the needs of their children.
TXF:
Do you really see PAS used much where you are? How many times in the last 6 months has that term been used in court that you have seen?
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will says:
This is long, but since I posted it at TXF’s site, I wanted to post it here too.
(From the NY Times) A recent study regarding how we view our actions:“The problem with the principle of even-numberedness is that people count differently. Every action has a cause and a consequence: something that led to it and something that followed from it. But research shows that while people think of their own actions as the consequences of what came before, they think of other people’s actions as the causes of what came later.
In a study conducted by William Swann and colleagues at the University of Texas, pairs of volunteers played the roles of world leaders who were trying to decide whether to initiate a nuclear strike. The first volunteer was asked to make an opening statement, the second volunteer was asked to respond, the first volunteer was asked to respond to the second, and so on. At the end of the conversation, the volunteers were shown several of the statements that had been made and were asked to recall what had been said just before and just after each of them.
The results revealed an intriguing asymmetry: When volunteers were shown one of their own statements, they naturally remembered what had led them to say it. But when they were shown one of their conversation partner’s statements, they naturally remembered how they had responded to it. In other words, volunteers remembered the causes of their own statements and the consequences of their partner’s statements.
What seems like a grossly self-serving pattern of remembering is actually the product of two innocent facts. First, because our senses point outward, we can observe other people’s actions but not our own. Second, because mental life is a private affair, we can observe our own thoughts but not the thoughts of others. Together, these facts suggest that our reasons for punching will always be more salient to us than the punches themselves — but that the opposite will be true of other people’s reasons and other people’s punches.
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richard cherry says:
don’t know if it’s true, but it’s fascinating
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Geraint says:
“Feminist” such as yourself are nothing but hyprocritical sexists, whoses views are just as replusive as “chuvinistic males”, facists, fundlementalists or conservatives.
You are not in favour of equality between the sexes, but favour inequality towards women, that is not why feminism was brough about and that is not what feminism is about.
Feminism is meant to be about EQUALITY between BOTH MEN AND WOMEN and not about sexism and anti-male comments from phony “feminists” such as yourself, and you have undermimed and discredited real and proper feminists everywhere.
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Violet says:
Hey, look, Tx — one of the MRA twits came out of the woodwork.
Geraint, this post is about Richard Gardner and his theory of how fathers have a natural right to sexually abuse their children. By all means, do explain why you support this point of view and how those of us who disagree are “anti-male.”
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will says:
Geraint, I am with you!!!
Violet is definitely anti-male. There is no question about it. I keep trying to get her to marry me or at least have sex with me, and she keeps refusing. So, clearly, she must hate males.
If she was for equality, she would have to say yes at least half the time.
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Violet says:
What can I say? I’ve undermimed real and proper feminists everywhere. Of course I hate mimes, and have ever since I was a kid watching Red Skelton. Every week he’d do a goddamn mime skit and I hated every second of it. Not funny, boring as shit, let’s move on, you know?
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Chris says:
I still miss the memo pad I used to have. At the top was a yellow smiley face with the words “Have a happy day!”
At the bottom, in smaller but still prominent type, it said “Mellaril® (thioridazine HCl) Tablets, USP”
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Tisha says:
I am not going to bother reading all the bs of all the women saying no data to support pas…PAS is abuse of one parent brain washing a child, filling there head full of lies…How do I know…I am a daughter of pas…My mother use pas to try to brain wash me against my father…I hardly believe all these mothers that say oh he touched my kids…bs you are probably a bunch of liars like my mother…& If in some odd cases it is true you can blame the low life mothers that do use this abuse on there children to try to alienate the child away from the father…If those children grow up and realize that they have been lied to & manipulated like I was they are going to hate the one that used the pas abuse on them like I hate my mother….
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henderson says:
This probably not going to go over very well, but I couldn’t help it. Somebody showed me this and i thought it was the funniest thing. You may have already seen it because you bloggers types know about everything two seconds after it happens. But it was new to me. I put it here, but it does not belong on this serious thread.
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henderson says:
this one belongs on the other thread like Worms or somthing but I don’t want to interrupt. it’s my favorite.
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henderson says:
One last one
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mre.....butter.htm
The worst part is though, I found myself on this roster of flame warriors ( not going to tell you which one). can you find yourself?
Sorry Tisha, I am being rude.
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henderson says:
Aw shute, I meant to give a third one instead of two of the same.. but you get the picture. Now I’m just being a jerk.
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henderson says:
Tisha,
I’m sorry that happened to you. it’s rough stuff. I hope that you will be somehow manage to come to terms with it for your own peace of mind in your dear head. but you got a tough row to hoe on that. -
henderson says:
Tisha please forigve me. I am being stupid.
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henderson says:
Who’s this?
