Learning to despise women
Back on the Father Hugo thread, Steve asked:
So here is my question. And I admit it is asked with some sarcasm: Who are the women that guys like Glenn Sacks are hanging with? Or the women whose behavior and privilege and advantages have been so oppressive to him?
Damn, I’d like to meet some of them, because — to date — all I see and confront is almost limitless male privilege, an ongoing get out of jail free card that never expires and that to this point continues to bestow the benefits of patriarchy on me even when I’m not the least bit interested.
Steve’s question popped into my mind when I was over at Amanda’s this morning reading her roundup of sexist dating advice. Sites like AskMen.com are keeping the stereotypes alive and well, depicting women as shallow, grasping harpies who use their evil sexual wiles to take advantage of men. Aw, poor men!
Check this out (Amanda put the re-gendered version up, but this is the original from AskMen.com):
Women aren’t content just to be happy. Their brains are wired differently than ours — they crave conflict, drama and instability. They like to start fights over nothing. Because they need and want to be constantly reassured, they thrive on insecurity. They are illogical and emotion-driven creatures. This is why they test men by constructing damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t traps to put men’s commitment, loyalty and motives on trial.
Most of these traps come packaged as innocent questions or offhand remarks. Innocent? Dream on. In fact, they’re designed to make a man fail, and woe to you if you do because the punishment for failure is merciless. Tender trapping may be a ridiculous and childish game that women force men to play, but there’s no way you can avoid it, so the trick is to sidestep her booby traps. Ultimately, this means learning how to effectively skirt around the truth (a.k.a “lie”), because when a woman asks you these questions, she isn’t really looking for an honest answer. She wants you to lie — and when you do, you’ll shut her up for a while and maybe even earn yourself some premium nookie.
So here are a few of the most common questions women use to trap men, along with some stupid responses men give (the truth) and the smart responses they should provide (lies).
“What are you thinking?”
A classic. Women are like little children — they believe that the sun and universe revolve around them. So when a woman asks this question, what she really means is, “Are you thinking about me right now?” Her female psychology drives her to imagine that she dominates your thoughts 24/7. Nevermind that she’s not thinking about you; what’s on her mind is buying the 147th pair of shoes she doesn’t need.
“Do you love me?”
What she’s really asking is, “Is this relationship going to end up in marriage or am I just wasting my time hanging out with you?” Never forget that women look at dating and marriage as businesses, and if she’s not going to realize a future profit, then she will have no further use for you.
And on and on it goes.
AskMen.com claims to be the largest men’s lifestyle website in the world, with 6 million readers a month and a “34.58% market share of all surfers interested in men’s lifestyle content.”
65 Responses to “Learning to despise women”
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CR says:
they believe that the sun and universe revolve around them
They don’t believe it- they know it.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:26 pm EST -
CR says:
I’m only kidding- well. sort of.
The thing about that is that for alot of women in love, maybe most- the sun rises and sets in her lover’s eyes. And she is probably trying to see if it’s the same for him. Nobody likes to be the only one feeling like that in a relationship. Nobody likes to feel like a big sap, unless the other one is feeling the same way.
but I will say one thing that I agree with. Honesty in a relationship isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Some things are better left inside and to yourself. I’m not saying go around being a smart ass trying to get “one up” on the other person- i’m just saying that one ought not say every single little thing that one is thinking. Thoughts pass, but realtionships- hopefully, are forever.
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Violet says:
CR, you’re not picking up on the tone of utter contempt for women? That doesn’t bother you?
I can tell you one thing for sure: the guy who wrote that column has an incredibly tiny dick.
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Mandos says:
Yes, in particular,
Never forget that women look at dating and marriage as businesses, and if she’s not going to realize a future profit, then she will have no further use for you.
The man who wrote it must be in the middle of a bad breakup or something. First time in a long time I’m having difficulty accounting for it under Juju Theory.
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Violet says:
Bad breakup? If that guy’s ever been in a relationship with anything other than an inflatable doll, I pity the woman. Serious case of insecurity-fueled misogyny there.
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Violet says:
Of course what bothers me about the whole thing is not the psychological travails of this particular pencil-dick, but the fact that this is the tone of all the advice at AskMen.com — the most popular men’s lifestyle site on the web! Woo hoo! Millions of guys are mainlining this crap.
Sometimes I feel like feminism is just pissing in the wind.
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Alon Levy says:
Sometimes I feel like feminism is just pissing in the wind.
No, that’s just your brand of feminism. Mainstream feminism is busily engaged in a tug-of-war with sexist politicians.
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Violet says:
You know, Alon, someday you’re going to have to tell me what you think my “brand” of feminism is. We really don’t swim in little schools marked “radfem” and “sex-positive” and “liberal.” I’m a comfortably mainstream feminist and have been all my life. I know — it’s my life! All 43 years of it!
On the blogosphere there are only a couple of feminist bloggers with whom I have any substantive disagreements, and they’re on opposite ends of the feminist spectrum from anti-pornstitution to sex-positivism. What they have in common is that they’re both (in my humble opinion) completely whacked in the head.
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Alon Levy says:
The brand that conflates telling women what they really like with serious analysis.
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Timothy Shortell says:
I’m not sure that we can conclude anything about the writer’s psyche. It sounds to me like ad copy. I suspect that the site, like all “men’s lifestyle” publications, is aiming for a market of upper middle class white men who want to be flattered and puffed up and reassured, basically, that nothing is their fault. That’ll put ‘em in a buying mood. The site, and its print cousins, is nothing but a spacer for the advertising.
I see a straight line between this crap and most “men’s” advertising (eg., trucks, beer, etc.). It plays up the stereotypes of gender differences and flatters because it is looking to sell you (the reader/viewer) something.
What concerns me most is that people are foolish enough to buy into the shtick. Anyone who lives by its guidance is sure to be unhappy and a major irritant in the lives of everyone he knows.
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Violet says:
You may be correct about the writer, Timothy, but that guy specializes in that kind of misogynist advice. He’s got a running column.
And the whole site is distinctly anti-feminist. Obvious things, like advice on how to shut down your girlfriend’s “feminist rhetoric” about wanting you to care about her feelings. Less obvious things, like the fact that the Men sidebar features businessmen and atheletes, and the Women sidebar features models, actresses, beauty queens — no businesswomen. The whole vibe of the place is oriented towards keeping women in subservient status.
Why do you suppose that makes men feel so good they feel like buying stuff?
And a two for one — I came to see Timothy’s comment and also discovered Alon’s astonishingly trenchant assessment of my feminism, which I’d missed before. Why, that is exactly what I think feminism is! Bravo!
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CR says:
CR, you’re not picking up on the tone of utter contempt for women? That doesn’t bother you?
I see it. It’s just so common in the world I decided to over look it. Which probably isn’t such a good idea for me to go and do.
That fellow ought not be giving anybody any advice right now in his life. He’s not mentally ready for any relationship. And if he is feeling like that about women and realtionships, he ought to hang around nicer women. I don’t know what sort of female he’s hanging around with, but it’s not doing his head any good. But it may not be the ladies at all. It may be him. With that kind of attitude, he’s going to scare females. Nobody wants to get a heartbreak. Who needs it? And he sounds like a heartbreaker.
I Hope if there any fellows out there who ARE ready mentally for a relationship, they don’t pay any attension to him. He’s the Fog Horn LegHorn of Man World. I know there are such kind of women out there. Guys just need to politley steer clear and find themselves a nice,serious sort of girl.
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Timothy Shortell says:
Why do you suppose that makes men feel so good they feel like buying stuff?
Excellent question. It seems to me that the answer points to the essence of patriarchy in a consumer capitalist society (my Situationist friends call it The Spectacle). So, why does being a self-centered, self-deluded, manipulative person (in the correct demographic) make you an ideal consumer? I suspect that it has to do with a sense of entitlement.
The script goes something like this: You deserve the good life. Here’s how to take care of the annoying women in your life (so you’ll get more “premium nookie”) so you can spend more serious time with your toys and your friends (other men, of course). Oh, and by the way, we have a few things that a man like you deserves. Have your credit card handy.
Emphasizing stereotypical gender differences and sexist attitudes creates market opportunities. Of course, you could argue that being a caring, egalitarian person also would create marketing opportunities, but since the sexist demographic is much, much larger, you will find most of the commerical activity targeting them.
(Goodness, I sound just like a Marxist trying to explain away sexism as an effect of capitalism. I don’t really think that is true, though I do see this particular form of sexist self-help in the way I’ve described. There is undoubtedly a residual effect of patriarchy in the mix too.)
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CaptDMO says:
Married with Children.
“Aaaalll, whatca thinking?”
“Geeze Peg, If I wanted you to know what I was
thinking…I’d be talking!” -
Mandos says:
Of course the site has an anti-feminist overtone. It can’t possibly NOT—a certain proportion of the magazine is going to be about making men feel good about themselves.
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Violet says:
Of course the site has an anti-feminist overtone. It can’t possibly NOT—a certain proportion of the magazine is going to be about making men feel good about themselves.
Really? I think that’s an interesting assertion to explore: that anti-feminism is what makes men feel good. So…feminism is what makes men feel bad?
Feminism: equality, partnership, choice, mutal respect, freedom… These things don’t appeal to men?
But they obviously do appeal to some men. And it goes without saying that they appeal enormously to most women.
The question then is: Why do so many men, young men, in this day and age, prefer to nourish hatred and contempt for women?
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CR says:
What Mr. Timothy is saying is very interesting to me because I’m in business. I see alot of sexist advertising. Mostly, though not entirely geared toward males of a younger age. Yet, here’s my thing. The fact is that the demographics fo the United States is mostly people over the age of 42. Why are businesses trying to gear their advertsing to males between the age of 18 and 25 when they, A. have the least amount of spending money. B. Represent one of the smallest, and least important demographics by far? Why are advertising adgencies gearing their sales to what basically amounts to mere boys who will not be buying their products anyway?
Cars for example. Statistically, around 80% of all new car sales are either sold to females or decided by females. Why then are the car advertisements [mostly] geared toward males when they are absolutely and statistically not their target audience? Same for beer, same for fast food. Same for most things.I have a theory regarding this phenomenon in advertising- but i’d like to hear what you all intelligencia say.
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Timothy Shortell says:
The question then is: Why do so many men, young men, in this day and age, prefer to nourish hatred and contempt for women?
Short answer: socialization.
Social change is hard. It requires a lot of collective effort, and there was considerable progress during the 60s and 70s, but rather a lot of backsliding since. I consider that the poisonous effect of religion.
Our social institutions are geared to function in the status quo, so there is a great deal of inertia to overcome. They have to be pushed toward egalitarianism. And then socialization will work to instill those attitudes instead of sexism. (And, presumably, the advertising will try to find ways to exploit those attitudes for profit.)
I think that much advertising is geared toward lifestyle consumption or conspicuous consumption. The appeal of ads geared to younger men is that it represents the ideal. Because “everyone knows” they have more fun. Older men want to buy that kind of hedonism or its more extravagant cousin, luxury consumption.
Advertising is sexist because society is sexist, and of course, that creates a feedback loop.
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Mandos says:
So…feminism is what makes men feel bad?
I think that this is a discussion very related to the Battle of Hugo Schwyzer. Many, if not most forms of feminism entails a critique of men’s actions regarding women, and it is hard to deny that some men, for whatever reason, do get to assume pleasure and material advantages from some form of treatment. For instance, sexual entitlement.
At the very minimum, feminism can make men feel guilty or defensive. In fact, we’ve lately seen that certain types of feminist argument can make women defensive.
But back again to the Hugo business. Timothy quoth:
Social change is hard. It requires a lot of collective effort, and there was considerable progress during the 60s and 70s, but rather a lot of backsliding since. I consider that the poisonous effect of religion.
It isn’t exactly hard to turn this into the “cold swimming pool” metaphor. Not all women are comfortable with liberation, and definitely not all men are going to be comfortable with being liberated from, even if it comes with all the good things you name.
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Violet says:
I have a theory regarding this phenomenon in advertising- but i’d like to hear what you all intelligencia say.
CR, I’ll give you a perspective based on rubbing shoulders for a few years with Madison Avenue types. And then I want to hear your theory.
1. Going after the youth market is about capturing brand loyalty for life. That applies to any product that will be consumed life-long, cars or beer.
2. The research demonstrating that women make most buying decisions is relatively recent, and the industry is still coming to terms with it. There are a few stumbling blocks, most of which hinge off the fact that the advertising industry is overwhelmingly sexist and male-dominated in terms of creative decisions. There’s probably doubt that women really are making the buying decisions. There’s probably belief that even if men aren’t doing the shopping, they’re still telling women what they want and getting their way. And underneath it all is that these male executives are really fond of sexist stereotypes (look at the ads they come up with) and deep down believe that men should be making the decisions and therefore must be making the decisions.
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Mandos says:
CR: Really? New car buyers are mostly women? Not only are most car ads directed at men, but I’m given to understand that even saleswomen will always gravitate to male customers.
The 18 to 25 male demographic is the one that has no children and few responsibilities (or so they—meaning many of the men—think). They do blow their spare change, student loan money, etc, on things that their parents might instead spend on food, etc, even if their parents technically have more money. I mean, iPods become more prevalent in my experience the younger if not maler you go.
But also they are under the correct belief that they have to hook consumers when they’re young, and that male consumers as they grow older will have more spending money and more control over spending money, from past experience. Unless what you say about car purchases is correct. Still seems odd to me.
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CR says:
Very interesting. And i woudldn’t bet against you. but being in business, I know that buisness is very much a function of the very people behind the business. There is no doubt that most businesses want to appear to be ‘hip”. They want this because they want the consumer to feel hip and young when he/she buys their product.
HOWEVER… buisnesses also want to make money to support themselves and the people who work for them and their families. Advertsing geared incorrectly at the wrong audience is a killer. Businesses are practical and deliberate theorically. Yet they don’t make their advertsing decisions based on practicality a good deal of the time.
Family movies always make more money at the box office than do XXX (Vin Deisel) type shoot ‘em up booby girl movies.
Advertsiements geared twoard their target audience in studies always turn out to be more effective than those that appeal to the 18-25 year old boys and girls.So what’s going on? What gives?
I know that business is very much a function of the very people behind the business.
The advertsing businesses have alot of young boys in them fresh out of school. And they design commercials to suit themselves. They are picked up by other businesses that are run by old [or young] males and the token broad or two. They are acting in an impractical manner. I think it is folly.
I allow myself to say impertinant statement because I have more business than I can tolerate, and feeling very much my oats on this matter.
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Mandos says:
Gack. I got moderated. Frankly, I prefer CAPTCHA.
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Mandos says:
Yes, but as Violet says, the 18-25 demographic, well, getting them hooked is a smart long-term investment.
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Violet says:
Many, if not most forms of feminism entails a critique of men’s actions regarding women, and it is hard to deny that some men, for whatever reason, do get to assume pleasure and material advantages from some form of treatment. For instance, sexual entitlement.
Okay, but…look at the actual paradigm that’s being supported at a place like AskMen. These men obviously don’t live in a world where women are at their beck and call; they’re young adults in contemporary society. And they’re being fed a highly antagonistic form of sex politics. Women are stupid. Women are irrational. Women are golddiggers. All you (the guy) want is to fuck the hateful bitches, and the goal is to trick them into letting you do that. It’s like WAR.
I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that that kind of antagonism between the sexes is the opposite of what the overwhelming majority of women want. Even women who are not educated in feminist rhetoric nevertheless long for equal partnership and respect and loving closeness with men.
So is the situation that we have a generation of young women who long for loving equal partnerships, and a generation of young men who despise women and want to use them?
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CR says:
The research demonstrating that women make most buying decisions is relatively recent, and the industry is still coming to terms with it. There are a few stumbling blocks, most of which hinge off the fact that the advertising industry is overwhelmingly sexist and male-dominated in terms of creative decisions. There’s probably doubt that women really are making the buying decisions. There’s probably belief that even if men aren’t doing the shopping, they’re still telling women what they want and getting their way. And underneath it all is these male executives are really fond of sexist stereotypes (look at what the ads they come up with) and deep down believe that men should be making the decisions and therefore must be making the decisions.
You always say things better tha me. Everything you said is true. This “doubt” about whoe’s running the show and the pocket book- is not realistic froma buisiness perpective. Yet it hangs on like a barnicle. An old, worn out, over done, tired, boring, been there done that, seen it a thousand times before- barnicle. or gum that someone stepped in and can’t get it off their shoe.
I recently did a national commercial (3 really) and it was “art by commitee”. The worst and most dreadful peice of crap ever. They were so set on selling their product and being accociated with 18-25 years old males ( not a single one of whom would EVER in a million years actually would buy their product) that their commercial is ridiculas and waste of money. But the older males in the “commitee” were so enamoured with the young males in the advertsing agency. And the young males with me. It was stupid. that’s all I can say. Just plain stupid.
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Violet says:
Really? New car buyers are mostly women?
The figure that women control about 80% of new car-buying decisions in the U.S. has been out for a few years. The industry is gradually coming to terms with it; I’ve seen more references recently to the default car buyer as female, including statistics on how many car buyers bring along a male companion to help deal with sexism on the lot!
It takes a long time for these things to sink in.
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CR says:
CR: Really? New car buyers are mostly women? Not only are most car ads directed at men, but I’m given to understand that even saleswomen will always gravitate to male customers.
Yes it’s true. Make of it what you like. The salesmen are screwing up.
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CR says:
The 18 to 25 male demographic is the one that has no children and few responsibilities (or so they—meaning many of the men—think). They do blow their spare change, student loan money, etc, on things that their parents might instead spend on food, etc, even if their parents technically have more money. I mean, iPods become more prevalent in my experience the younger if not maler you go.
I do not know who buys Ipods, I was speaking of products in general . and they are NOT purchaesd by this 18-25 year old male demographic. and I would go so far as to say that if a business is looking for long term customers, they are going about it the very, very wrong way.
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CR says:
Don’t take it bad , Mandos. I got moderated too.
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Mandos says:
These men obviously don’t live in a world where women are at their beck and call; they’re young adults in contemporary society. And they’re being fed a highly antagonistic form of sex politics. Women are stupid. Women are irrational. Women are golddiggers. All you (the guy) want is to fuck the hateful bitches, and the goal is to trick them into letting you do that. It’s like WAR.
First of all, I’d like to say that AskMen is written as though it’s directed at the 30-something yuppie men with MBA’s group, not the 18-25s. At least, that’s how it reads to me. It’s all about capturing fast-fading youth and, perhaps, rebelling against the fact that life hasn’t gotten you what you wanted yet. Pre-midlife crisis, almost.
Given that, the only way I can think of right now to explain this is that some young men (in that subgroup) having not entirely gotten what they want in life, subconsciously remember that once upon a time, they might have at least gotten power.
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Mandos says:
Makes sense though re cars. Women are doing more childcare than men, and a big part of car-buying is how to deal with the kiddies.
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Violet says:
Well, pursuant to my comment 25, I should probably clarify that my question at the end wasn’t rhetorical. Reading a site like AskMen really makes me wonder just what’s going on.
I find it impossible to believe (pace Germaine Greer) that most young men are that hateful. But why is this rhetoric so appealing? Is it a psychological defense against fear? Helplessness? Confusion?
Mandos, you’re right that this ties back into the Hugo argument (whence it originated, in fact), but I believe it also ties into that other discussion about emotional work and partnership.
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Violet says:
First of all, I’d like to say that AskMen is written as though it’s directed at the 30-something yuppie men with MBA’s group, not the 18-25s. At least, that’s how it reads to me.
You’re a guy, so I’ll take your word for it, but the dating advice sounds exceedingly novice-oriented for a man in his 30s.
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Mandos says:
Maybe so. I’m no fashion plate by any stretch of the imagination, though, but I hardly know any men of the 18-25 demographics who’d be caught dead wearing this:
Especially not the coat. I could point out other things that just don’t seem 18-25 to me at all. Juvenile dating advice is part of the entertainment and fantasy of recapturing your youth—that’s the only way that I can explain it.
Note that AskMen is something you can blame the poutinarchy for:
Note that they know this, because they eat it regularly. However, they have their Montreal blinders on: poutine is no longer just Quebec’s national dish. I have found at least barely passable poutine as far West as Alberta. It is the ideal food for a Northern country with a lot of long distances.
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Mandos says:
The underscores in the links made then broken. Let me try again with regular links. Hold on…
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Mandos says:
So here’s the first one
Note that the latter is under the “wine and dine” section. This is because, in Canada, there are fine restaurants that do serve their own gourmet poutines, at least in Montreal. I have seen it in Ottawa as well.
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Violet says:
I fixed them.
Ah, yes. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a guy under the age of 25 wearing a trench coat.
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Violet says:
Whoops, I mean I had already fixed them in the original comment. In my meta magic chamber. Well, no matter — by all means, let’s have as many links back to AskMen.com as possible!
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Violet says:
What about the 25 to 30 demographic? Somehow we’ve got a lacuna of 5 years.
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Mandos says:
Also, speaking of objectification, look at their top 99 women (just to balance things out I won’t provide a link). Women 96: Nicole Kidman. I can’t think of any males in the under-30 set who would think of Nicole Kidman in the top 99 at all. Others in that list also look directed at a slightly older set.
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Mandos says:
They’re a weird transition group. Some of them identify still with the under 25s, others with the 30-and-aboves. 25 for men is No Longer A Kid but you’re only officially *old* when you’re over 30.
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Mandos says:
And, I should add, advertizers probably hate mixed groups. I mean, they apparently killed Firefly because they couldn’t find ads for it—demographic too homogeneous. Chalk one up for CR’s theory about narrow-minded marketers.
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Violet says:
Okay, well, we’re nailing down our demographic. I’ll send a memo to Creative in the morning that our consumer is a 32-year-old in a trench coat with a burgeoning stock portfolio and nostalgia for his fast-receding youth.
In the meantime: what’s with the dripping contempt for women?
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Mandos says:
Then I said,
Given that, the only way I can think of right now to explain this is that some young men (in that subgroup) having not entirely gotten what they want in life, subconsciously remember that once upon a time, they might have at least gotten power.
And you said, not completely quite in response,
I find it impossible to believe (pace Germaine Greer) that most young men are that hateful. But why is this rhetoric so appealing? Is it a psychological defense against fear? Helplessness? Confusion?
Mandos, you’re right that this ties back into the Hugo argument (whence it originated, in fact), but I believe it also ties into that other discussion about emotional work and partnership.
I would first like to say that me and a lot of the men here, I suspect, are not going to be able to give you satisfactory answers. I have never looked in a men’s magazine for advice about women’s emotional needs of any kind, let alone my own, and people attracted to this blog to be constructive commenters, I suggest, would probably be similar.
But in my quote, I reference a certain putative subliminal sense of loss and betrayal. But you put your finger on something else that might be the issue: fear. Fear that now that women have choices, they (men) won’t be able to figure out how to have a satisfying life on their own terms as well.
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Violet says:
Oops, back to demographics for a second: how old do you think these AskMen fans are?
They seem about 12 to me, but who the fuck knows. At any rate, while young guys may not be the target demographic, I suspect they’re reading the site for advice. Ick.
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CR says:
Rasberries.***
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CR says:
That rasberries wasn’t for you Miss Violet. We were wrting at the same time. I was making it for the other posts. Mostly Mr. Mandos. I’m teasing you Mandos, but it’s late, I’m tired and words are starting to fail me. it’s not a proper answr on my part. But it’s the very best I got at 8 at night.
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Timothy Shortell says:
Again, I don’t want to sound too much like a Marxist here (my site is Durkheimian, but I’m really a Weberian), but I think that part of this transcends the minds of individuals, in advertising or consumers. I think the contempt for women that the askmen-type sites peddle is part of a larger lifestyle commodity production that exploits sexism for profit. They are trying to socialize that relatively wealthy demographic to buy into the lifestyle package — the self-centered bastard (aka, the player). Younger men tend to look longingly at this demographic; they want to be a part of it when the get to that stage of their lives. Making people feel entitled makes good consumers. It is all about convincing this type of guy that he deserves to treat women like dirt.
So, I would draw a line of connection to others who are exploiting sexism (and a sense of resentment): the religious right, the way-out wingnut bloggers, talk-radio. Some want to sell something and others want attention (so someone else can sell something).
I don’t think it will change until more people understand the critique of mass consumption which exposes the game. The men who are targeted by this lifestyle production are being played. They are being led to believe that they’ll be happy and fulfilled by purchasing the lifestyle. They’ll end up bitter old men.
Of course, some of those consumers who buy into this lifestyle are just assholes.
I used to see a lot of this attitude when I taught at a private liberal arts college in Boston. These were the guys who aspired to this very demographic.
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Mandos says:
Hey, CR, what did I do wrong? :)
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Violet says:
I appreciate what you all are saying. I’m just still reaching here because I don’t quite see anybody addressing the real hatred at work. This is beyond wanting to succeed in life or have lots of sex; this is about wanting to make women suffer.
If you look at that forum link I posted just above, the guys are all talking about a piece of shit called ‘The Truth About Women.’ It’s one of the most deeply misognystic things I’ve ever read. It’s about much more than getting sex, which is the ostensible goal; it is quite explicitly about causing women pain. And reveling in it. It is not funny. It’s not a joke. It’s written by someone who despises women profoundly. And it was, I hear, one of the most widely posted articles in the history of usenet. Young men ATE IT UP. They’re still eating it up.
Let me be clear, that throughout my life I’ve known many wonderful guys, including my own brother who was my best friend growing up. So I am hardly someone who thinks men as a group are evil. But I do know hatred when I see it.
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Violet says:
I just had to get that off my chest. It really hurt me to read that, knowing as I do how hard most young women try to make relationships work, and what hopes and dreams they have.
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Timothy Shortell says:
You’re right, Dr Socks, about that usenet post. Pure hatred. It reminds me of the stuff I’ve seen on supremacist blogs. (I’m doing a study of race discourse in the blogosphere.) I think there is a parallel. The men who eat up that shit are despicable. There is no other word for it. It is remarkably inhumane to hold such beliefs about other people. But these are guys who see humaneness as weakness. I’ll bet you find a rabid homophobia on those same discussions also.
I don’t know how common that extreme form of sexism is, but I don’t think it is typical of young men.
I wonder how Pastor Hugo would counsel these guys. (Ineffectively, I’m guessing.)
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Mandos says:
You know, there are some of those lifestyle boards on which I thought most of the participants were 12, but they were actually in their 30s. There are some truly juvenile pregnancy websites as well. Like http://www.snugglepie.com. Look at the “complex world of male-female relationships” article. The readers of that site DEFINITELY aren’t all 12.
I found the posters on that site more ambivalent that you did. There were some cheerleaders and there were a few dissenters and some people laughing at it more than anything. But the best answer I can give comes from the beginning of the article:
I wasn’t a sexist before I understood women. There was a time when I was blissfully ignorant. I grew up watching Disney cartoons, I believed in romance and “true love conquers all” etc. I wanted to find a woman who could be my equal, my partner. I believed in finding that one true love and being committed to each other forever. You know, like in the marriage vows, “for better or for worse, through sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer” etc. And I believed that women basically wanted the same thing. Now I understand that this was only possible when society was structured to enforce it. Now that women are “liberated” (and thus at the mercy of their own emotions and baser instincts) this is mostly no longer possible in today’s society. Victorian society, or many Arab societies, are examples of how society used to be structured to keep women as faithful as possible.
A deep resentment that he cannot control women to have the life that he thinks he wants.
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Mandos says:
I think I’ve found the right road back to Juju Theory, btw.
You know, now that I’m living in the USA, I sometimes go on anthropological field-work expeditions when the opportunity presents itself. One of these involved that cultural shibboleth, the Superbowl. Anyway, it so happened that I was attending a small public festival and fell in with a group of guys ranging from 20ish to 40ish in age. And they invited me to join them at their shared home (roommates in a large house) to watch the Superbowl, which of course I had never seen up to this point.
It must be emphasized that most (but not all) of them were liberalish guys who both work for and with women and don’t appear to have a problem with it, and I never heard trash-talking about female coworkers and so on.
But one of the things they did that really struck me was whenever a female reporter would comment or interview a player, these guys would jeer vehemently. I was struck by this, and looked quizzically at them, radiating a little bit of my trademark subtle disapproval particles. One of them noticed and told me, “We HATE female commenters at the Superbowl.”
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Mandos says:
Oh, and …
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larkspur says:
As an antidote, check out Steven Winn’s column in the San Francisco Chronicle (it’s here; sorry about the lack of a tinyurl thing http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti.....JH6SR8.DTL ) entitled “Should we trust Esquire’s requiem for U.S. Men?” - for example:
…It might be easier to get worked up about the state of American magazine journalism than the state of the American man after all this squandered ink on glossy paper. And yet, as I plowed through July’s Esquire in the line of duty, I began to feel an odd buoyancy and hopefulness. The harder the magazine’s writers and editors tried to document the “crisis” confronting the American man, the better I felt. The issue struck me not so much as requiem for men as, albeit unintentionally, a hammer blow to the kind of gender politics that produce articles like these in the first place. Wouldn’t we all be a lot better off if we stopped pitching these huge ideological tents and hustling half of the population inside for lamentations and hymns about naive and insulated boys and the reading-resistant, emotionally stunted, physically reckless, suicidally inclined men they grow up to be?
One of the great legacies of the women’s movement is the way it led us to see and think about one another as fully dimensional, richly varied and specific individuals — once we began to understand the reductive and gender-restrictive barriers to doing so….
It’s interesting. It makes me remember the obvious, like the fact that I have so much more in common with, say, the lovely and insightful norbizness, than (say) Kathleen Parker. Case by case and fully dimensional, when it comes to friends and allies, is totally the way to go.
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CR says:
You know Mandos,
I woke up this morning and smelled horse manure. and I asked my friend “Do you smell horse manure?” This is a strange smell because I live in the city. Not a field or a horse for 20 miles. I like that smell, by the way, because it makes me think of animals and farms. I went outside to see where the smell was coming from. But the odour seemed to be coming from inside the house. I went over to the computer, and by golly! the horse manure smell was coming from my computer! Then I did more investigating and realized that it was coming from this very thread. Then, to my shock and surprise, after further sniffing, the horse manure saell was actually coming from MY OWN POSTS on this thread!You didn’t do anything wrong Mandos, I did. I’m sorry.
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Mandos says:
Hey, CR, what did you do wrong? :)
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CR says:
I don’t know.
I’m a confused individual. Sometimes I have flashes of brilliance and I’m very proud of myself. but most of the time I’m only running on 3 cylinders on a model that is supposed to have 12. Truth is, I’m pretty good at what I do at work, but have developed very little else. The appreciship was 10 years long. Total dedication to a useless, but extremely intese pursuit. Like professional glass blowers. They must learn their art for almost as long as a doctor. Only for total nonsense. I was having a very chimpy day yesterday. And I’m having one today too = and it’s not even time for my period yet.If I hurt your feelings, I owe you. Rasberries is a chimpy answer to a very well thought out post.
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txfeminist says:
I read that article on the forum about how to get laid. It was really, really depressing. It evidenced a hatred of women in such a clear way. Bascially, a creature that is not human and doesn’t respond in normal human ways (ie,as men do) so, instead you have to trick her into doing what you want her to do.
It’s really disgusting. It essentially nails the caricature of women that askmen.com advances.
it made me think of a cartoon “woman” character, like Jessica Rabbit or something.
it also had an extremely predatory thing going on, as well.
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CR says:
I don’t know why any of this is. But fellows all too often encourage and celebrate the silly hat on backwards, bay boy, player, I’m a gorilla (no offense to gorillas) and I’m proud of it behaviour. Even when they are fully grown men.
It’s getting very tiresome. And then the fellows wonder why they are unhappy and why girls don’t like them or their wife bitches at them. Who needs it? Who wants to be treated like that? Who wants to hang around with that? Poeple are fragile. Guys just are making it uneccessarily hard on themselves. Causing them selves to be lonely and misunderstood- then they get mad and blame the ladies. Because study after study shows that males blame an outside source for their troubles rather than examine themselves more often. It’s all her fault-no matter what. And it’s not healthy for a girl’s mind to hang around with such a fellow for any length of time. No wonder so many females are choosing to be single anymore. How does a girl trust that person on big important life issues? The fellow is making himself a giant, tiresome, childish pain in the ass. He ought listen to his heart instead of other guys.
I remember a line from a Doors song that says “Women seem wicked when you’re unwanted”.Too much silliness in this world, not only for guys but also for ladies too. You’d think no one had ever lived much life. Like they hadn’t gotten their butts kicked by life. Like everyone was still 14 years old even when they are 52. Alot of very silly things folks are thinking and buying into. and it’s not doing anyone any good at all.
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richard cherry says:
Oh Mandos - snugglepie….oh lordy; oh oh oh; ah hoo hoo hoo; oh ark ark ark - poing - there go my sides. I have learned many wonderful things from this glorious site (dr violet’s, obviously), but nothing has prepared me for snugglepie. Not the delightful name (winner of Internet Emetic magazine’s star award for the last five years), nor the tasteful pink borders, nor the honest and accurate strapline ‘Celebrating Womanhood’, not even the self-effacing estimate of its ‘Real World Parenting Forum’ as ‘not just any old parenting forum’ but rather ‘a parenting community where friendship and support means the earth’. None of these could prepare me for an article entitled: ‘10 Secrets to Buying a Valentine Gift - Without Making a Committment’ [sic] (written by a woman believe it or not - and seemingly a woman who studied feminism as zealously as she did spelling)and in case anyone is about to expire from the suspense, I can reveal that all ten of these ancient secrets involve buying jewelry (the writer, as well as being allegedly female is the owner of a jewelry company). I’m sure AskMen.com is a hateful piece of crap (and I shall be clicking on it just to be certain)but snugglepie? The horror the horror…
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gordo says:
CR–
I’m still laughing about the horse manure bit.
Violent–
Let’s not forget that AskMen isn’t a widely read publication. If they claim a readership of 6 million, they’re full of crap. They’re counting everyone who hits their site. There definitely aren’t 6 million men who visit the site every day to see if there’s a new article up.
That would include me, because they have a profile section that gives celebrity biographies. Every once in awhile, when I’m looking for info on google, I accidently hit a link to one of these profiles. I’m sure I’m not alone.
Just about every man I know shuns publications like AskMen, Maxim, FHM, etc. It’s hard to take seriously a grown man who reads such things.
But that doesn’t mean that the sort of hatred that you’ve pointed out hasn’t been internalized by some of the people who think that Maxim is for adolescents.
The biggest reinforcer of these stereotypes is television. You often see them in the sitcoms, and a lot of the commercials are built around them.
So in some ways, we’re dealing with a self-reinforcing cycle: TV and ad writers give us sexist stereotypes, we internalize the stereotypes, and demand is created for more TV shows and ads that contain the stereotypes.
But in my experience, most men who buy into the stereotypes at all buy in to only a limited extent. And younger men seem to buy in less than older men.
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ginmar says:
http://alternet.org/sex/37642/.....34#c137938
Speaking of woman hatred…If you can’t control women, well, then, they’re man hating bitches.
