Male Condescension
A day or two ago I dashed off a quick post on how my reader-response to the sexual violence in The Winter King differed from that of the male fans of the book. It was no big deal, just an observation about how, in general, men and women react differently to depictions of female rape. (It’s personal to women, not personal to men, end of story.)
The strange thing was that someone named Michael showed up and completely misunderstood my post. He apparently thought that the reason I wasn’t enjoying the book was because I failed to grasp the nature of fiction. (For those of you who know that I’m a writer, this will undoubtedly strike you, as it struck me, as especially choice.) He then proceeded to lecture me on the function of art, fantasy, and authorial intention.
I laughed him off.
He then became enraged, I told him he’d completely missed the point, he became more enraged, and finally worked himself into a frenzy of resentment that I had failed to appreciate both his intellect and his brilliant tuition. All very amusing and weird; just another day in the life of a blogger.
But it got me thinking about a phenomenon I suspect most women know from personal experience: the dudely tendency to talk to us as if we were morons.
I don’t kvetch much about masculine condescension because I’m generally exempt from it, but I’ve certainly observed it. In real life the majority of men seem intimidated by me. I don’t know why — women aren’t intimidated by me, after all — but there it is. Nevertheless, it does occasionally happen that men who don’t know me approach me with that “let me teach you how to tie your shoes” attitude. I’ve had men explain to me how to staple a stack of papers (in the upper corner!). I’ve had men explain to me how to use a three-hole punch. I’ve had men explain to me in patient tones that Israel is mostly populated by Jewish people, who are different from Muslims. Usually the problem is solved as soon as I open my mouth, but there are some men who are so convinced of their dudely superiority to women that they just won’t shut up, no matter what. I remember one guy I met at a party who was “explaining” the religious history of the Near East to me, and even after I’d alerted him to the nature of my education and credentials, he just kept right on talking to me as if I were 8 years old.
I can honestly say I have never been condescended to in that manner by a woman, ever. Not once.
Women I know — friends, colleagues, fellow blog denizens — often comment among themselves on this phenomenon. What on earth are men thinking?
P.S. Just to be crystal clear: the purpose of this post is to invite people to discuss the general theme of dudely condescension. I have no desire to continue the Saga of Michael.
139 Responses to “Male Condescension”
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will says:
You wouldnt understand so I am not going to waste my time trying.
June 2nd, 2006 at 1:36 pm EST -
Violet says:
Will: How many bloggers do you know who write whole posts just to set up your jokes?
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will says:
That is why I love you.
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Txfeminist says:
Dudely condescension is alive and well.
I run into this phenomena all the time. Particularly at work. A co-worker recently decided it was his job to explain to me how to take down wallpaper, after I’d already casually mentioned I took down the wallpaper in my house myself. Hello, hearing problem?
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love2all says:
I totally completely agree with you on all points. In fact, I was nodding in both enthusiastic and frustrated agreement while reading your post. Each time I am in the market to buy a new car, who does the (usually male) salesperson speak to? My huband. The salesperson barely acknowedges my presence.
The last time we bought a car, I told the (male) salesperson that the car was for me. He still spoke mainly to my husband but gave me a tiny bit more attention after I spoke up. I finally picked a car after about an hour only to hear the salesperson say, “Oh, but that’s a manual speed. You’ll want an automatic.” I looked at him square in the eye and said, “Honey, I’ve been driving a stick since I was 16.”
But to be fair, there ARE some women who actually are capable of knowing and doing much more than they let on. Call this playing dumb, if you will. I usually nickname it the “50s stepford wife mentality”
Take my mother for example. She pretty much gives in to the idea that women can’t do certain tasks or cannot wrap their brains around certain ideas. In her eyes, certain things are best left to the men. For example, my mother cannot operate the following household items: the remote control, VCR, DVD player, alarm clock, air conditioner, calculator, computer, gas grill, etc. You get the point.
Of course, she’s perfectly capable of operating all these things. If I show her, she can do it. But it’s almost like forbidden territory; she can do it once if no one else is looking but after that, her brain switches over to “I’m just a simple woman, dear. YOU do it, my strapping, strong, masculine husband” mode.
Occasionally I’ve been guilty of it, scared to venture under the hood of the car or asking my husband to fix the leaky drain. One day when a DVD got stuck in the player, I almost started to yell for my husband again. Instead, I said “fuck it”, grabbed a few tools and proceeded to dismantle it, successfully retrieving the DVD and then reassembled the player. Works fine now.
It’s not just my mother, it’s my mother in law, my aunts and a dozen other women I know. It’s purely mindset. Women want to be liberated but they don’t realize that they still expect men to do certain things for them. Occasionally, I’m still guilty of it.
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Violet says:
love2all, my mother behaves like that too. She’s a very intelligent woman: straight A’s in college except for one math class, etc. But she completely accepts the idea that my father is competent and she is not. He knows things, she doesn’t. He can do things, she can’t. It’s bizarre.
I’ve lived alone since I was 25, so I possess a pretty good set of basic life skills: I can change a tire, rewire an electrical circuit, do basic plumbing repairs, chop wood, build a fire, handle power tools, do basic carpentry, etc. As my parents age I frequently help them out, but it still alarms my mother tremendously whenever I undertake to fix something for her. “Let your father do it!” she’ll cry. “No, no, wait for your Dad! He’ll know what to do!” But before my father retired (from his second career) he was working 60-hour weeks and it was absurd to expect him to fix something that I could handle perfectly well. But mother just couldn’t wrap her mind around the fact that her female child could do such things.
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tevez says:
Guys need to feel like alphas. Big shots.
This manifests itself in lots of ways: sports, music, money, height, motorcycles, stereo components, knowledge of how to put up wallpaper, etc. Dunno why; my guess is that it was woven into our DNA over the millions of years where life was hard and only the alphas survived.
And I think most women like to feel like they’re in a relationship with an alpha. Join match.com and claim to be a 6 foot tall male and see how many hits you get. Now change your height to 5’4″ and see how many hits you get.
I know a couple where the guy is constantly showing off how much he knows about wine. It annoys me and everybody else…except his wife. She thinks it’s “adorable”, and she loves it when he orders the wine for both of them.
For myself, I have no problem dating women who are better than me at some things, but if I was dating a woman and she was better than me at EVERYTHING — smarter, more accomplished, wealthier, better speller, could solve “Jumble” puzzles faster — I’d probably have a hard time with that. It’s not that I’m a bad guy or a insensitive sexist; it’s that I don’t want to feel expendable.
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Violet says:
She thinks it’s “adorable”, and she loves it when he orders the wine for both of them.
I don’t know this couple and you do, of course, but what you describe sounds like something most women engage in at some point or other (and some of us do it all the time): indulging the male ego. We’re trained to do it from birth, which is also why most women put up with the dudely condescension even if it irritates them. And when you’re in a relationship with a guy — oh yeah, the way to keep many men happy is to continue to play the ego-stroke game. Oh, yes, dear, you’re the best!
It’s not that I’m a bad guy or a insensitive sexist; it’s that I don’t want to feel expendable.
Nobody does, but why should female competence make men feel expendable, but not the other way around? Why shouldn’t women feel expendable when they’re in a relationship with an all-around Mr. Can-Do? You might say that it’s because the woman is needed for love and sex, so of course she’s not expendable. But then the question becomes, why doesn’t that also apply to men? Women need men for love and sex, not to rewire the dining room chandelier.
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will says:
You don’t like it when I order wine and your entree for you? I typically let you pick your soup or salad and dessert.
Doesn’t that count for anything?
Wait a minute….. Am I not “THE BEST!!”?
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Violet says:
Wait a minute….. Am I not “THE BEST!!”?
You’re the best at that one thing. Not so much the other thing.
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Infidel says:
three women
jackets and jeans
one cooks quiche
the other beans
one makes bread out of hot dog buns
takes kaeopectate when she has the runs
she walks the dog and feeds the cat
and goes on diets when she thinks she’s fat
three women
jackets and jeans -
will says:
“You’re the best at that one thing. Not so much the other thing.”
Put me back in coach!!!! I can do better!! Give me another shot..PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Infidel says:
…or like forgotten lyres
whose dissonent strings give varying response,
to each varying blast…“Mutability”
-Shelley- -
Promenea says:
“It’s not that I’m a bad guy or a insensitive sexist; it’s that I don’t want to feel expendable.”
I can pretend I don’t know how to run the vacuum if that will help.
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tevez says:
In the couple I mentioned, they’re both well educated NYC corporate lawyers. On their first dinner date, they sat down at a table which wobbled slightly. The guy insisted that the waiter switch tables. Not move them to another table; he insisted that the waiter physically remove that table and bring over one that didn’t wobble.
And she later told me (without him around — she’s the one who’s a friend) that it was the biggest turn on EVER, because it was great to meet a man who knew how to take charge.
What you view as bossiness or condescension might be a turn-on to some women. And what you view as respect or politeness (like asking you if you’d like to move) would be insufferable wimpiness to some women.
why should female competence make men feel expendable, but not the other way around
Using “should” in male-female relationships is a recipe for frustration.
My friend who is getting a PhD should not be desperate to get pregnant by her unemployed, alchoholic, cocaine sniffing scuzzbag husband…but she is. My kind, responsible, sensitive (but boring and timid) male friends should be able to find spouses…but they can’t.
I don’t know why people behave irrationally. My guess is (as I said earlier) it’s a vestige of days when life was hard and the only law was “do whatever you have to in order to avoid death.” But who knows.
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CR says:
One of the ways of the courtasan is to encourage men to “show their knowledge”.
Everyone wants to feel important. I am with the same man over 20 years. He is much better at certain things than me and vice versa. We get along. We joke privately ‘The the man is smarter than the woman”. When I screw up after he warned me already. And when i see a particularly silly animal on “Americas Funniest Animals”. I point to the TV and say to him “Hey, you didn’t tell me you were going to be on TV!!!”
Never mind about condesension. No one can take away who you are and what you know.
I showed your Religions Evolve series to my friend and he said your were “Da Bomb and amazing”. And I said. “She’s talking right off the top of her head– isn’t that wild?” And he was full of respect. best wishes,
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Violet says:
I was using “should” as a conditional, not imperative — same as “why is it that…”
I’m sure that some women are indeed pleased by bossy men or super-competent men. Personally I think that’s socialization, since we live in a society that traditionally prizes male action and competence and rewards female infantilism.
I also know, from personal revelation, that some women who admire their husbands’ wonderful manly superiority also suffer from deep feelings of worthlessness. They don’t recognize the systematic sexism that’s led them to idolize masculine competence and denigrate their own abilities, but they certainly feel the effects. “Oh, my husband can do anything. I’m just useless and stupid.”
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Gregory says:
I’ve noticed that guys who talk in that condescending manner to women usually do it to other men, too. It’s that whole alpha male dominance hierarchy idiocy, using knowledge instead of fists and headbutts. And when I’ve dealt with guys like that, I’ve definitely noticed that they give it out big time to women, too. I think the only difference is that they tend to be more blatantly aggressive towards the men, and come across more “Daddy knows best” with the women.
I wonder how much of that condescending speech towards women is also a message to other men in the dominance hierarchy — a sort of “Look, I can control the womenfolk. So bugger off.”
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tevez says:
I’ve noticed that guys who talk in that condescending manner to women usually do it to other men, too
This is a good point — I’ve noticed this too.
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CR says:
My male freind says, “Women rule the world but they don’t know and men do.” he says “Women ARE the whole world. They can make or break a man or a child”
giggle. He says this while watching baseball. -
Violet says:
For me, the most comfortable relationship is one of equals. I enjoy being with a man who’s good at what he does, confident of himself, and also appreciative of my abilities. I don’t want a man who feels the need to be superior to me, and I also don’t want a man who’s deferential and lacking in confidence. I want an equal.
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Infidel says:
There is a place for condescension. Condescension can help define the boundries of, and sensitivities to, mutual efficiencies. Their are efficiencies to be gleaned from specialization and divisions of labor. Independent Jacks(and Jills) of all trades may not need such efficiencies.
…or condescension is always a bad thing.
My mind keeps goin through these changes. -
Infidel says:
“. . . there is a much higher character from that of a wit or a poet or a savant, which is that of a rational sociable being, willing to carry on the commerce of life with all the sweetness and condescension, decency and virtue will permit.”
Elizabeth Montagu (1720 – 1800) English intellectual, conversationalist
Letter to Mrs. William Robinson, her sister-in-law,”The Letters of Mrs. Elizabeth Montagu,” 1810-1813Thank you again Miss Socks-you’ve led me to a great quotation site. I don’t think you even realize half your virtues.
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Mandos says:
‘s a mother thing. Culturally, we’re used to men being worldly and women not, and hence men must explain the world to women. Whether this was actually ever the case is another matter…but this is the cultural expectation set up and the mindset in which men grow up.
I, for one, am condescending to everyone.
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Steve says:
I don’t want to be coy here, but neither do I want to break my anonymity. So excuse the coding.
But last year I finished a lengthy tenure as the Vice President to a female President of a large institution. And my most vivid memory will always be the fascinating vantage point this position gave me on rampant male condescension.
Let me set this up a bit. I am a bit of a fitness guy and I am 6 feet and pretty muscular. The female I worked for was a gentle motherly figure. Oh she was tough as nails, much tougher than me in a crunch, but she deeply believed that toughness didn’t require that she constantly assume a kick ass pose. She talked and acted in a gentle way with which she was comfortable and when someone’s balls had to broken she did it with dignity. I looked like a tough guy. She looked like a grandma.
Because of the difference in how we looked, every goddam fucktard asshole male — no matter how supposedly enlightened or sensitive — virtually every goddam one– assumed that they could get away with infantilizing, condescending talk with her; that they had to explain things to her; that her lack of a male pose meant that she would naturally tend to be a pushover.
I am thinking of one particular prick, indeed quite a famous prick, who if he posted to this blog would talk the talk with the best of you. He’d make you dizzy with his knowledge of the theory and the practice of feminism.
Yet his pose masked an arrogance and dismissal of my boss that — given his almost pathological lack of self-awareness — he would not even understand. It was loathsome. His cosmology had absolutely no place for a woman with a gentle veneer who was capable of slicing off his testicles with such subtlety and civility that it wasn’t until he was out of the office that he would notice the blood dripping from his crotch.. He couldn’t stand the fact that a woman could say no to his often pathologically grandiose requests and ideas.
And this drove him nuts. Because he didn’t like to think he could be played, especially by a woman. So he constantly tried to revert to the role of her tutor in all things political, all things tough. And she smiled. And she laughed at his idiocy. And she neutered the slimy little fuck.
And through the entire time we were colleagues I would again and again watch all manner of men walk into my office, talk the tough talk, and then walk into her office with me and start the condescension crap. Sometimes they’d come to see me and say something like: “We gotta talk the boss into this or that…” assuming that a woman would never do whatever “that” was. At worst, even knowing that we both had a Dr. in front of our name, they would call me Dr. Schwartz and call her Ms. Schickelgruber.
I have since come to believe that this experience watching asshole after asshole come in and misread the visual cues, confuse her and my gender and appearance with the type of people we actually were, was my fundamental awakening as a feminist.
I can’t lie. I talked the talk before. But watching this parade of condescending clowns was what filled me with an almost permanent revulsion against men who presume some privilege, even when the woman to whom they are condescending outranks, outbrains, and outdecents them.
I will never lose the rage I acquired watching this and, yes, I did on several occasions have the chance to tell them to take a flying fuck.
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Steve says:
that felt good
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Infidel says:
I’
m
sorry. but..
Your story Steve- if only it finished..”and then one day I walked into her office,… “no I cant- I’m sorry it just reads like that- and there is so much gender tension- Please condescend to forgive me- Clearly this is a person you care for and respect- it just reads like that. Like a Penthouse Forum. sorry -
Violet says:
it just reads like that. Like a Penthouse Forum.
Only in your mind.
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Steve says:
Infidel:
If Vi hung in there with Michael, I can certainly do so with you.
So what does everyone think? Did it sound like the subtext of my story was unresolved sexual tension? I’m curious if others read it that way.
You’ll have to trust that in this case no such desire or even sub-desire was in play.
Actually, to hell with Vi’s almost instictively patient reaction to some of you fucktards. Infidel, you are a dick. That post was painful to write, and I dont need it demeaned by some guy who thinks he knows a little Freud.
I found THAT condescending. And pretty fucking stupid.
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Gregory says:
So what does everyone think? Did it sound like the subtext of my story was unresolved sexual tension? I’m curious if others read it that way.
For my part, no, it did not read that way, and his comment seemed highly juvenile, to be totally honest. What I got from your post was that you admire her greatly. I guess some people can’t wrap their heads around the idea that a guy might admire a woman without wanting to have sex with her.
Thanks for sharing your story.
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Violet says:
Steve, there is no reason to be patient with Infidel. His comment was disgusting and totally inappropriate.
But watching this parade of condescending clowns was what filled me with an almost permanent revulsion against men who presume some privilege, even when the woman to whom they are condescending outranks, outbrains, and outdecents them.
Your experience gave you a perspective, usually unavailable to men, into what women experience all the time.
It’s a commonplace among women to note that many men are somewhat delusional. Delusional in the sense that they are unable to perceive women as we really are, and also delusional in the sense that they constantly need to be reassured of their own wonderfulness (whether they are, in fact, wonderful or not). Even women who totally buy into male superiority nonetheless recognize that men are fragile creatures who are blind to much reality. The more liberated the woman the less likely she is to be willing to cooperate with this, but none of us can escape it.
Non-delusional men, it goes without saying, are beyond precious.
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Alon Levy says:
Of course, then there arises the self-reference problem, since men who are ordinarily non-delusional would suddenly be stricken with overconfidence due to their being non-delusional. It’s like how so many people brag about how they’re not arrogant.
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GettingWarm says:
I love this post, and Steve, thank you for sharing that story. Many times I’ve wondered how much of this behavior is regional and/or cultural. I used to live in a midwestern state in a well-educated population, and I didn’t experience condescending verbal and non-verbal interactions very often. But, when I moved west, it happened more and more. I work at a different University now, still within a well-educated city, and it’s a daily occurrence here. Many male students and faculty talk to me as if I were a child, with few capabilities of understanding complex problems. And by default, somehow, they feel it is appropriate to address me as “Mrs.” even though I’m single and a Ph.D, whereas my male colleagues by default are spoken to as: “Dr. So and So.” This bothers me a great deal. Even more annoying, however, is the sexual ways that things are said and assumed, as if we find that kind of talk exciting or flattering! I had a colleague who felt it was his right and privilege to describe my physical appearance every day until I told him to knock it off. It seems that some men believe it to be a “normal” part their responsibility to comment on a woman’s appearance on a regular basis. Is this television? I don’t know, but I don’t like it. If anyone starts wondering how I dress for work, I assure you it is in a very professional way. Living here, I sometimes feel we are moving in the wrong direction.
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belledame222 says:
I have definitely experienced the Dudely condescension. sadly, it’s not only dudes. more frequently, however; and definitely there’s a particular *way* the Dudely are more like to condescend, especially when it’s related to something political or anything that might be construed as an argument. my favorite is when they start pulling out the logical fallacies business. i mean, sometimes it’s appropriate, but ime it tends to turn into a my-grasp-of-formal-logic-is-bigger-than-yours thing.
actually, now that i’m thinking about it:
i cut my virtual teeth on a vc that was and is more male than not, and a certain type of male probably overrepresented (“head”-y, argumentative, tending toward smarter than your average bear, also tending toward perhaps less socially and emotionally skilled than your average bear). what i have noticed is that some of these guys sound condescending pretty much as a default state; and that at least online, the best way to deal with them is to roll with the punch and give it right back. there is something here about communication styles, much as i am not impressed with the whole Deborah Tannen and/or John grey school of men-talk-like-this, women-live-on-this-other-planet.
but i do think that what comes off as condescension–and rightly so, don’t get me wrong–is sometimes perhaps best understood as the dread Male Answer Syndrome. and the whole “i’d rather be right than liked” mentality. again: online. in real life i find all sorts of other shit comes up, and it’s much easier and faster to tell when you’re getting the Silly Girlie treatment.
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belledame222 says:
–oh yeah, the “explaining how to do things” when
“Nobody asked you sir, she said”
–and it’d be clear to anyone who looked that you were doing just fine on your own.
maddening; because then if you take offense you appear an ingrate–”hey, I was just trying to help!”
more maddening to me because, at least when it comes to tech-y things, i genuinely feel like an incompetent blob. whether this is because of feminine training or poor fine motor skills or something else altogether, i don’t know. but i really envy/admire women who can, like, fix their own computers and carburators ‘n’ shit.
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belledame222 says:
>I can honestly say I have never been condescended to in that manner by a woman, ever. Not once>
sadly, i can’t say the same. and have definitely been witnessing that sort of condescension in certain spheres and certain contexts; am thinking particularly here of the whole “gender trumps race” kerfuffle at Alas and elsewhere. admittedly only a couple of women who were really egregious imo; but to the women of color on the receiving end, i could see, it must’ve felt like ambush from all sides; and for all of me it was so.
more often i see a different flavor of condescension; it has the same flavor as i feel from certain unctuous Christians. “i pray for you, not condemn you,” that sort of thing, you know. personally i prefer the more straightforward kind (“Jane, you ignorant slut”); it feels less disingenuous somehow.
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belledame222 says:
>You don’t like it when I order wine and your entree for you? I typically let you pick your soup or salad and dessert.>
I have a relative-by-marriage (father of aunt-by-marriage) who is pretty damn patriarchal by any definition: conservative, possibly Orthodox Jewish, very controlling and dour. He likes, I am told, to order for the entire table at restaurants. Unless, and only unless, someone wants something with pork or shellfish in it; then he will point silently to the disgraceful self-defiler. Apparently he doesn’t even like to *say* words that aren’t kosher, you see. of course i have this second-hand from someone else who can’t stand him.
Anyway, I want this to be true because as it happens, the man lives on (wait for it) Bacon Street.
i have had great pleasure imagining the imperious little twit trying to tell the cabbie how to take him home from the airport, say.
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belledame222 says:
Steve–your story, wrt condescending fucktards, I’m thinking there was maybe some ageism thrown in there as well, if she looked like a “grandma.”
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cicely says:
No, Steve, there wasn’t a hint of what Infidel suggested in your story. Thanks for sharing it and I’m glad you’ll never lose the rage you acquired watching that. Then, ditto to what Violet said – that your experience gave you a perspective into what women experience all the time. It’s part of the fuel mix for feminism. That’s one fuel we look forward to running out of, though it probably won’t happen in our lifetimes.
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Infidel says:
Ya know those Penthouse forums are pretty well edited. The explication, resolve, climax- the pace of the thing- fast and thourough with a point and conclusion- short and sweet- engaging- it “read” pronouns verbs sentence structure- so on. I was wrapped- I could have commented on substance but I was so stung by structure. No I didn’t mean it read like. Just a stupid thought.
“You’ll have to trust that in this case no such desire or even sub-desire was in play.”
I had no such delusion. I can’t imagine anyone with half a brain cell that would. I am a dick. I should have been more explicit if I desired to convey a thought so ambiguous. I don’t possess the cogent eloquence of some others here.
Steve your story was right on and had no sexual tension whatsoever.
I am sorry.
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Paul Tergeist says:
Lookit Vi, men are not condensationists at all, but sometimes it is necessary to explain to women what is the deal because they are standing there looking at a guy like he is stoopid or something. Naturally he wants to help them find a clue in that situation so they are not continually uninformed.
It REALLY pisses me off that Will beat me to my own joke so I had to schlep this crap together.
Today is my birthday. Happy birthday, me…..but actually it sucked, pretty much like any other day.
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Infidel says:
* * * * *
| | | | |
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| |
| |
_____________ -
Infidel says:
It kinda looked like a birthday cake when I posted it.
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Paul Tergeist says:
Thanks, Fidel. At first I thought you were cursing at me in Khoisan.
Hey, I feel much better now that I said something REALLY funny!
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Paul Tergeist says:
From the text: He then proceeded to lecture me on the function of art, fantasy, and authorial intention.
-VioletYou misunderstood, V. You were discussing rape in The Winter King. Michael was lecturing you on Arthurial intention.
Double points? Triple?
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Infidel says:
Paul, I was thinking about my pathetic life and what I might profess to you as an attribute and, this was before, anyway, I can cluck really well. One of those strange allignments of the planets- then(of course) I have to google K-Khoisan because I don’t know what the heck your talking about and there it is. Weird huh? A click language- like you read my mind.
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Violet says:
Paul, it’s your birthday today? Happy Birthday! Happy happy happy!
Michael was lecturing you on Arthurial intention.
In I think my second comment to him I told him I was an “arthur” myself — little pun there, but I don’t think he got it.
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Steve says:
Happy birthday Paul. You have dropped a lot of hints about your age in the form of various cultural references, but — wqhether you are 10 or 100 — your acidic tongue and devil may care attitude have been a hell of a lot of fun to read!
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CR says:
Happy Birthday Paul! . I’m glad you were born.
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Paul Tergeist says:
Thank you, friends. I am 59, having been born on 2 June, 1948 in Nuremberg, Germany. Since my mother chose not to abort me during my matriculation in the womb, I always add an extra year to my mathematical age out of appreciation.
My wit is due to a my optimistic outlook on life which is synopsated in the brilliant aphorism “Well, you ain’t dead yet”, as well as my addiction to locally grown oranges and tangibles which provide plenty of acerbic acid.
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flyinfur says:
Steve, you are too cool.
Happy birthday Paul!
I find the older I become, the less condescending crap I tend to see. Or maybe it’s just that I’m in teacher mode so often (specialized job and have to educate everyone) that no one would dare.
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gordo says:
Paul–
HFB
Violent–
My mother used to leave “men’s tasks” to men, but she found a cure for that: divorce.
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Michael says:
Dang it, I failed at staying away.
It is a perception of male condescension. It is not necessarily always male condescension.
Part of the problem is that text alone does a poor job of communication. The style of my post that you perceived as condescension was deliberate and is sort of like the Socratic method — re-stating an argument so that it seems so obvious it is impossible to disagree with. Even though you think I missed your point, my argument was not false. Please notice the subtly here — I may (or may not) have misunderstood you, but even so, the words I said were true, and you somewhat implied that they were true as well. This is a style of debate and it doesn’t surprise me a bit that you perceived it as condescension. Were we at a bar, the argument style would have seemed far less condescending and more just plain ol’ combative.
While I know you are not seeking to revisit the Saga of Michael or whatever, you have to admit (and by you I mean all of us) that much of the emotion in plain ol’ text is IN THE MIND OF THE READER, not the writer, and pissing matches like we had often start when the intent of the writer is misunderstood. Now let me point out, too, that the writer is not faultless and I am one of those people that am often misunderstood in terms of the emotional content of my electronic text messages, always in a way that makes people think I am madder and meaner than I really intend. I was trying to insult you politely and I failed miserably.
I got mad because you ignored the actual content in every message I wrote and instead reacted to the emotional content. I also felt you were oddly unwelcoming considering you are the host of this conversation. If I am wrong you should be able to state that I am wrong without calling my intellect into question.
Bygones as far as I’m concerned. It is obvious you don’t like me and perhaps that is justified. Life goes on.
But I do have to point out that in this post, too, you are not necessarily 100% correct. Sometimes people read between the lines incorrectly.
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Violet says:
I got mad because you ignored the actual content in every message I wrote and instead reacted to the emotional content.
Actually you got mad because I laughed you off. I responded to your initial pretentious and condescending comment with a little joke. But you instantly went into foaming-at-the-mouth mode, called me idiotic and asinine. At that point the conversation was over. It was beyond over when you proceeded to call me ‘baby’ and ‘dear’ and a ‘psycho.’ To use the bar analogy, you’re the kind of guy a person stays well away from because he’s obviously unhinged. I don’t dislike you so much as I think you’re a nut with some serious anger issues.
Though I do want to thank you for coming back and giving us yet another textbook example of dudely condescension. “I wasn’t condescending to you; you just misunderstood. I was using the Socratic Method, and if you weren’t so emotional you would have understood that.”
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Michael says:
Yeah, whatever. We can all scroll back, you know. I was not ‘foaming-at-the-mouth’, I’m not a nut and I don’t have any worse anger issues than you, apparently. Every attempt to explain myself meets more of your anger.
I’ve obviously offended you and I apologize.
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Violet says:
Thank you for the apology, Michael. I accept.
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And-U-say says:
I can honestly say I have never been condescended to in that manner by a woman, ever. Not once.
I would disagree with that. Male and female roles are predisposed in this culture and condecension happens whenever anyone is not on their home turf. You don’t see female condecension because you are a female. Being male allows me to see female condescension in a variety of places:
- anything to do with “motherly parenting”
- cooking
- cleaning
- style or fashion
- interior design
- anything emotionalI am a gold medal diaper changer, baby bather, and bedtime story reader but mothers refuse my offers of help and even prefer a womon who has not even SEEN a diaper to anything I might offer. I see this in all these areas. I find that women (like their male counterparts) get miffed when I show them that I can do such tasks better than they can. Sound familiar?
All of this is not right when it happens in either direction, but I thought you might want to know that men are not the only gender with this problem.
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belledame222 says:
I’d just like to point this out:
>>I can honestly say I have never been condescended to in that manner by a woman, ever. Not once.
>I would disagree with that…
The statement was, “I have never been condescended to in that manner by a woman.” Your response suggests that you are replying to something like,
“There is no such thing as female condescenson.”
Not the same thing at all.
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Michael says:
I think that And-U-say was saying that he HAS been condescended to like that by a female. The implication was, in the sentence he was replying to, that condescension was somehow more of a male trait than a female one, and I think that And-U-say’s point is absolutely correct — both sexes probably have areas where they consider their sex more competent. Stereotypically speaking, for men it is cars and for women it is kids. Believable to me.
I do believe it takes two to have condescension. People trying to be helpful can sometimes be perceived as condescending and sometimes as helpful, depending on your frame of mind and your expertise with the subject at hand.
As the a-hole who motivated this thread, I’d add that it is very, very hard to reliably detect condescension in electronic, text-only communications. We are all better off if we assume smilies and playful pats on the back when reading these types of posts.
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And-U-say says:
Not the same thing at all.
I agree that the two statements are not the same thing, but I do not agree with your interpretation.
Violet talks of “dudely condescension” which implies that it is somehow different from the female variety or that the female variety does not exist. Perhaps there should be something like “babely condescention” or the like?
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Violet says:
And-U-Say, I appreciate your point about female condescension, but — not to split hairs or anything — I do wonder how you can disagree with me on a statement about my own experience. I said I’ve never been condescended to in that manner by a woman. And it’s true, I haven’t.
You know, if you said, “I’ve never worn Bermuda shorts” and I said, “I disagree with that,” it would be rather odd…unless we knew each other very well, which we don’t.
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And-U-say says:
My appologies, I did not wish to disagree with the specifics of your point (your personal experience) but with my percieved concept of your post. (ahhh, the limits of the quickly typed comment). I think you may realise this with your “not to split hairs” comment. Point taken and I agree. All I really wanted to do here is point out that condescension is not a one way street.
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Violet says:
No problem.
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ginmar says:
Belledame, you’re bitching about condescending, when you approve, evidently, of Bitch/Lab, who thinks only weak white girls get harassed? Who thinks that turning in a child molester is some nebulous invasion of the molester’s freedom and privacy?
So what is up? Bitch Lab gets 1100 mostly males within a couple of weeks — from testosterone-dripping Internets ™ spaces — and Bitch Lab doesn’t get one teensy weensy poke from a poker?! What the fuck is up with that. Two male dominated spaces link to Bitch Lab and not one damn poker sticks around to give Bitch Lab a poking.
So I’m really confused as to why a woman who refers to herself in the third person and talks conflates sexual harassment with popularity—and as a way to discredit other women—-is some authority on feminism. “Oh, come on, he must really like you!”
and this is the way you deal with those with whom you disagree? who is not someone I take seriously enough to bother with; yet another asshat grimly riding the border between “kneejerk ideologue” and “frootbat”
So my choices are to be called names or told that when men treat me like shit it’s a compliment, by women who then complain that they’re being condescended to?!
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belledame222 says:
No, in fact, I’d say you have quite a few choices other than those.
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ginmar says:
Yeah, well, thanks for the condescension. You and Bitch/Lab certainly share more than a few tendencies. Don’t read how she jeered at sexual harassment. Don’t read how she pandered to her male readers. Don’t read how she implied that only weaklings or prudes get harassed. Don’t address any of that.
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Alon Levy says:
No, in fact, I’d say you have quite a few choices other than those.
What other choices does she have? I can only think of one – “stopping being an idiot.”
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belledame222 says:
Harassment, it comes in a lot of different forms.
And with that, I’m off to embalm my vagina.
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Mandos says:
Wow, clash of the titans here. I’m glad on this blog we mostly stick to the academic disagreements, because the mutual resentments are dripping…
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ginmar says:
Alon, you’re an asshole, and Violet’s tolerance of you is pretty much why I don’t tend to spend a lot of time here—-witness your defense of Glenn Sacks on another thread. He just denies the humanity of one half the human race and you want to split hairs over that, like there’s something to debate there.
If poeple dn’t want me to resent shit, they can be fair about it. Bitch/Lab and Belledame have both served up their share of condescension, so it’s a bit rich to watch BD talk about it.
Violet, if you take me to task for calling him an asshole, I expect equal umbrage to be taken at being called an idiot. I’ll be damned if I’m required to sit here and be condescended to and about by people who are complaining about condescension.
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belledame222 says:
nah, that’s just me. Dripping, I mean.
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Alon Levy says:
I don’t think it’s so much mutual resentment as Ginmar thinking (if it can be called that) everyone who disagrees with her is a monstrous patriarch.
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Alon Levy says:
I’ll be damned if I’m required to sit here and be condescended to and about by people who are complaining about condescension.
One good way of ensuring people don’t call you an idiot is not acting like one.
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belledame222 says:
Ginmar: you know what, you’re right. About everything. It is a bit rich. And no, you’re not required to do anything. So, you know: nice day out, no?
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ginmar says:
Fuck you, Belle. You didn’t read one goddamned word of what your fucking buddy said, did you? BEcause she’s right and you’re right and you’re both just fucking perfect. That’s condescension right there. God, I’m so sorry I’m not college educated like the two of you. Then I could appreciate how wonderful you both are.
Alon, go defend Glenn Sacks some more. It’s about as accurate as anything you say.
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Alon Levy says:
I’m trying hard to understand how on Earth anyone could reach the conclusion that Ginmar’s an irrational lightweight.
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ginmar says:
God, I love it when trolls and more-rad-than-thous get all passive aggressive and wonder why it pisses off people who don’t tolerate bullshit.
And Alon, sweetie, calling a woman irrational doesn’t do you any favors. Why not just be honest and use ‘hysterical’? Because it springs from the same root and the same conception of women.
I get pissed off when people are shitty to me. I get especially pissed off when the same people then act like getting pissed off at this is somehow unexpected. Then there’s Alon, all of nineteen, to recycle cliches older than he is. How refreshing.
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Alon Levy says:
And Alon, sweetie, calling a woman irrational doesn’t do you any favors.
I get it. All women are perfectly rational, and to claim otherwise is sexist.
Then there’s Alon, all of nineteen, to recycle cliches older than he is.
Kind of humbling that a 17-year-old is already better educated and more intelligent than you are, isn’t it?
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ginmar says:
Sorry, Alon, I confused your IQ with your age. Don’t confuse your arrogance and those hormones for intelligence. Nice sidestep avoiding the implications of the actual cliche you used, though. Or maybe it was cowardice? There are few things more telling than a boy who recycles the old ‘hysteria’ cliche.
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Alon Levy says:
Bragging about being smarter than you is about as arrogant as bragging about being taller than a pebble or more cultured than Tarzan.
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will says:
wow. Ginmar shows up and starts insulting. That is a shock.
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ginmar says:
Wow. Will shows up when his son is an asshole and doesn’t comment on it. What are the odds?
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Alon Levy says:
Ginmar shows up and starts insulting.
The last three words in this quote are redundant.
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ginmar says:
God, you really ARE 17, aren’t you?
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ginmar says:
Look at Alon, who thinks he’s perfect.
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Alon Levy says:
God, you really ARE 17, aren’t you?
Yes. And already more educated than you are, at whatever age you are.
Look at Alon, who thinks he’s perfect.
Compared to you, George W. Bush is perfect.
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ginmar says:
Alon, sweetie, being a snob and a snot is not the same t hing as being educated. I’m not going to coddle you because you’re seventeen, either.
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Michael says:
wtf. Is this a play being acted out? I like it! A little low brow, perhaps, but lots of action anyway.
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Alon Levy says:
Being a college graduate is, in a way. As for intelligence, I’ll leave it to the rest of the regulars to judge, honestly.
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ginmar says:
Go bother Belledame, Michael. I’m sure you two would get along just fine.
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Alon Levy says:
wtf. Is this a play being acted out? I like it! A little low brow, perhaps, but lots of action anyway.
I wish.
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ginmar says:
You mean, like your dad? Yeah, there’s an impartial source.
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Mandos says:
ginmar, just to make sure, you do realize that will being Alon’s dad is a joke, right? I’ve been caught in some of the strange meta jokes here too, btw.
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Violet says:
wow. Ginmar shows up and starts insulting. That is a shock.
No, she didn’t. She was talking to belledame about something at Bitch|Lab’s, and Alon inserted himself in the conversation to call ginmar an “idiot.” Hence the rest.
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ginmar says:
Thanks for clearing that up, Mandos.
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Alon Levy says:
We all know Belledame and B|L are really sock puppets of Glenn Sacks trying to confuse feminists.
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Mandos says:
No prob. For a time I actually believed that Steve was Violet’s ex. Actually, I didn’t believe it, then Steve and Paul started a conversation that convinced me that he was, and then they disabused me of it afterwards, and now I don’t know anything.
I’m not entirely sure who’s in the right though. I have a friend who comments on a blog to which I am a contributing editor, and while he’s very intelligent, there’s a correlation between his presence on a thread and its likelihood to descend into flamewarism.
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will says:
Sadly, the comments always seem to become personal when she shows up.
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will says:
Wait a minute! Alon isnt my son?!?!?! Trish!! That was a low down trick!
I am losing my sense of reality now. I just hope someone doesnt tell me that Violet, TXFem, and Janeen are not members of my sex cult in the woods.
Actually, all kidding aside, Ginmar and I are very close. xoxoxox honey!
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ginmar says:
Oh, Bitch/Lab once did a post complaining about how turning in a would-be child molester for actively seeking victims was as bad as molesting itself. Then she followed this up by jeering at sexual harassment victims, because she was so tough and special, you know. Then I had the temerity to say that gender will always win out over racism, because all men hate all women, figuratively speaking, and a bunch of radicals lost their shit because their men are special. I guess. Or something. Either way, you lose me at statements like, “white women lie’. Belledame called me an asshat, then whined here about condescension, even though she’s big buddies with bitch/lab and her leather, “I’m-so-popular-with-the-guys’ big bad self.
I swear, feminism is supposed to be simple. You hate men, and that’s that. *Joke*. But, seriously, I expect the same standards from all men. Don’t follow ‘em, and you’re not on my side. Molesting some women is not the same thing as reparation, and some men DO view women as property.
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Alon Levy says:
Wait a minute! Alon isnt my son?!?!?! Trish!! That was a low down trick!
I am your son. I’m also Chris Clarke and PZ Myers’ son. That way Trish could get three different men to pay child support.
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belledame222 says:
(kicking myself for taking the bait, but):
Well, no, from my view, what happened was–well, ONE of the things that happened was: *several months ago*, Bitch | Lab posted something she thought would be amusing, perhaps ill-considered (other women did take offense, yes), as part of some apparently humungous intrablog thrash that I wasn’t in. somewhere in there, ginmar shows up on BL’s blog, where I was posting, as yes, she is a friend; suggesting BL is a “liar” and *demanding* that she take back…whatever it was she was she was supposed to take back.
Sometime later there was a separate thrash involving ginmar, which involved another blogger I’m quite fond of, nubian of WOC blog, politely suggesting that “gender trumps race,” as ginmar put it, was neither accurate nor helpful. More nasty intrablog shit ensued. Nubian was rather hurt by the whole thing, as I recall, which is one of several reasons why I harbored some anger toward ginmar.
I have no idea who was supposed to have said the categorical “statement”, “white women lie.” (as in, “*all* white women lie? whatever). Nubian did not say that, Bitch | Lab did not say that. Nobody, to my knowledge, said that. In short, ginmar, I did not then and still don’t know who you’re talking to; you would appear to be having a conversation largely with yourself, is the best I can make sense of it.
Finally, what happened *now* was, ginmar apparently found my blog, made a cordial and relevant response to some other post on Iraq; I responded in kind. Then ginmar apparently was reading around my blog, found the post wherein I referred to her as a “frootbat,” and took umbrage, both there and now here. Understandably so. And clearly, I was wrong to have called her a frootbat. ‘Cause…check it out.
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belledame222 says:
and goddamit, Alon, you were supposed to keep my secret identity as a Glenn Sacks sock puppet *quiet.* No more treats for you. Even if you are only 17 (I had no idea, p.s–wow)
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belledame222 says:
…unless, of course, that, too, was a joke, Alon being 17, in which case color me as irony-impaired as everybody else. and I *so take back* my “wow.”
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Mandos says:
No, Alon is definitely 17. That was confirmed before his presence on this irony-blog. It’s just Violet that runs this strange meta operation.
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belledame222 says:
(sorry, nubian’s blog is “blackademic;” WOC blog is brownfemipower’s)
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belledame222 says:
Violet is clearly the sinister Queen of Meta, here to usher in a new Irony Age.
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belledame222 says:
and by the way, I’m the leather gal, not BL. although I’m very unpopular with the guys; and believe me, I’m just sick over it.
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Mandos says:
Hahaha. Irony Age.
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Alon Levy says:
I’m moving to New York in slightly under two months. If you want to meet so that I can flash my passport at you, feel free to drop me an email.
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belledame222 says:
and further by the way: in the aftermath at BL’s blog, one of the things I *also* said was–after I went over to her blog and moved on from the blog where she was slagging BL to some earlier posts, including the Iraq pieces which is of course what she’s best known for– that ginmar (whom I’d not before encountered) is an excellent writer, and that I recognized the “why aren’t you published” from one of her commenters as all too familiar for a lot of women, including BL (as we’d been talking about recently); and including myself. I also noted (roughly) that in fact ginmar and BL probably have a lot more in common than ginmar realizes, and it’s a shame that her anger is preventing her from seeing anything besides the (perceived) insult to herself.
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belledame222 says:
hey, cool, will do, Alon.
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Violet says:
ginmar is an excellent writer
Yes, she is. Ginmar is a superb writer.
and it’s a shame that her anger is preventing her from seeing anything besides the (perceived) insult to herself.
I’m not up on the whole string of events, but in March B|L wrote a post ridiculing ginmar. That was the whole post pretty much: ridiculing something ginmar had written, tearing it down line by line. Whether you agree with ginmar or B|L, I think it’s completely understandable that ginmar would not be inclined to overlook the insult. Who would?
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belledame222 says:
B|L made it pretty clear that it was not her intention to ridicule ginmar with that post. Knowing her as a friend, and taking that post in context of her overall output, I believe her. I can also understand why people felt that their experience of harassment was dismissed by that post (no, ginmar wasn’t the only one who responded that way). I do think it was a misunderstanding, made worse by the overall context of the whole meta-mega thrash that it was embedded in (I went back to look at one of the three or four threads, the one that exchange was in: MEGO and I couldn’t go read the rest of them, although I’m sure All Would Have Been Made Clear if I had, no doubt). Seeing as how Bitch | Lab is a friend, I really didn’t take any more kindly to the characterizations of her served up on ginmar’s site (which she keeps friends-locked), among other places.
Subsequently I encountered ginmar in a number of other contexts, some as a participant, others as an observer. Let’s just say that my impression of her overall online persona has a number of sources. The most egregious of which (particularly coming from a feminist) really isn’t mine to tell, I suppose, as I wasn’t involved; it is however archived in the recesses of a couple of Live Journals.
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belledame222 says:
and by the way, this:
>how turning in a would-be child molester for actively seeking victims was as bad as molesting itself.
is also a distortion from my POV; but that is a whole ‘nother kettle of asshattery and involves yet other players, and I think that just *may* be enough imported dwama for one day.
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ginmar says:
Belledame, B/L’s comment that she didn’t intend me any insult was sheer insult. To put it in terms that you get, your partisanship for B/L is perhaps blinding you to your own issues about how funny sexual harassment is. That, by the way, IS condescension.
And whne you say shitty things about somebody personally, expect them to get angry. Anything less is playing bullshit games and I don’t do that shit. You evidenlty do.
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belledame222 says:
Nobody ever said they didn’t expect you to get angry, ginmar.
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ginmar says:
Uh, yeah, belledame, I suspect I know which LJs you’re talking about, but coyly not naming prevents one from examining the biases there. B/L’s post was insulting and deliberately so. My entry about her was not locked.
And if no one expects me to get angry, then somebody better let Alon know for once and all, becuase that little fuck pulls this shit every time.
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belledame222 says:
I can’t control what Alon does or doesn’t do. *I* didn’t say I didn’t expect you to get angry, okay.
I didn’t post the LJ’s in question because–you know, I really shouldn’t have brought it up at all, that’s quite right. If you really want me to go hunt them down and post them here for people to make their own conclusions, I can do so. You can, too, as far as that goes. I’d rather not, at this point, honestly; I’m getting tired.
What is it that you want, ginmar?
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ginmar says:
Name LJs, for starters. You can’t bitch about me second-hand and then drop it. I want to see what you think about me, seeing as how you’re defending yourself by bitching about me from elsewhere.
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ginmar says:
Never mind.
I was right. I knew who you were talking about. So you admire ‘feminists’ who boast about what bad feminists they are and regularly boast about the strawfeminists they’ve defeated? Is that your standard? Christ on a crutch.
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belledame222 says:
*shrug* Okay. It’ll be a moment while I track down the address.
Meanwhile, out of curiousity, why do you care what I think about you? I’m a very insignificant person, really.
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belledame222 says:
–um, no, that one, I don’t think I know what you’re referring to.
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ginmar says:
I care when people lie. You should have said up fron that you got your opinion of me from that bullshit artist up front. That would have invalidated you right from the get go and I wouldn’t ahve bothered.
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belledame222 says:
Well, ginmar, the bullshit artist in question is this woman, whom I don’t know, personally, and have never spoken to. I just read the whole thing from start to finish, and drew my own conclusions. Anyone else is, of course, free to do the same.
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Violet says:
You two do realize that I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, right? Carry on, then.
As for Alon — yes, he was wrong to start insulting you, ginmar, and if I’d been here I would have said so. As it was, by the time I checked in the war was already quite far gone.
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Violet says:
Slip.
Well, I’ll go read this LJ belle has posted and see what it’s all about.
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belledame222 says:
Oh, that’s just one thing, really.
And really, that’s quite enough, now.
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belledame222 says:
For the record:
Ginmar, I am sorry for the names I called you. That was mean-spirited and rude. I am, in fact, sorry that I ever brought up your name or engaged with you at all. And plan to do so no further.
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ginmar says:
I guessed you missed the part where the two conservative women, one of whom I’d had friended for a long time, bitched at me for not being all happy and shiny after war. The one I’d had friended for years had defriended me without telling me for months and had nevertheless felt compelled to bitch behind my back publicly about it. Fuck only knows what she did privately, but then again, who cares, right? The other one got it wrong, but then again, she refuses to see war movies unless a conservative critic approves of them, and if you’re a soldier, and you don’t have a happy shiny view of the war you actually fought in, you’re an evil Godless liberal. And she feels compelled to inject Xtianity into vampire stories for fuck’s sake. THESE are your sources? How come the defriending and the backstabbing don’t bother you?
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ginmar says:
You’re sorry you got nailed for being mean spirited and petty and yet you’re still playing passive aggressive games. No wonder you prefer the people you do.
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Mandos says:
Uhhh…why is defriending such a big deal, again? I had an LJ briefly and follow a few. Is there some LJ culture I’m missing?
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ginmar says:
If you defriend someone but they don’t defriend you, they can still read your locked entries, which they might then use to bitch about you behind your back, which is what happened to me in the entry that belledame linked to. I’d had one of these two friended for years, and she hadn’t told me she’d defriended me months earlier. Both of them are ratehr fundie and conservative—one writes Xtian vampire fic—and they bitched about me with one of them having access to my locked posts. The other one still can’t get it through her head that I wasn’t talking to her about the defriending, which tells you a lot, because I never had her friended in the first place.
I don’t know about you, but having some Xtian fundie housewife bitch about my take on the war I actually fought in as opposed to that of some wingnut is pretty fucking obscene under any circumstances.
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Mandos says:
I see.
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DaisyDeadhead says:
I don’t know about you, but having some Xtian fundie housewife bitch about my take on the war I actually fought in as opposed to that of some wingnut is pretty fucking obscene under any circumstances.
Are you saying being a “Xtian fundie housewife” is supposed to be worse than being a trained assassin for the government?
How so? Could you explain?
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The Ghost of Violet says:
This post is over a year old and the most recent comment before today was in June of 2006. So while it’s not impossible that Ginmar is still hovering nearby, ready to respond, I think it rather unlikely.
So I’ll respond for her: no, that’s not what Ginmar was saying; not even close. She was referring to a woman she knows who hasn’t fought in Iraq but has dismissed Ginmar’s own lived experience of the war because it (Ginmar’s experience) doesn’t match the wingnut pro-war propaganda.
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ginmar says:
And DAiseydeadhead re opened the subject by commenting at the post in question. I can’t imagine why I have such a shitty opinion of her, BD, and all the rest of them.
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ginmar says:
A hired assassin? Really? Then you won’t object when I call a sex pox rape-apologizing, woman-exploiting, lying, deceitful troll. SAuce for the other goose, m’ dear.
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The Ghost of Violet says:
So this is about reviving a flamewar from a year ago? Two years ago? Okey-dokey.
I’m closing comments on the thread.
