Prostitution Debate Part 1: Thailand
(See also: Prostitution Debate Part 2: New Zealand)
As promised, here’s the first part of a little series of posts on prostitution.
Back in The Thread That Won’t Die, I explained here and here what I have in mind:
First of all, I’m going to start a new post in a couple of days, or rather series of posts, to compare approaches to prostitution. I think a series because we need to distinguish between radically different situations — imprisoned sex slaves in Thailand versus Cicely’s lesbian friends, to take one extreme…The reason being that most debates revolve around the big Theory of Prostitution, with people arguing the same point using references to completely different situations. Hence anybody can prove anything. My idea is to take an atomic approach for a change. That might allow us to work back up to a Big Picture analysis, but one that hopefully is more informed by an appreciation of the diverse circumstances involved.
As a first case study, let’s talk about Thailand. I don’t suppose we’re going to come up with the magic bullet solution, but I’m interested in comparing how pro- and anti-prostitution feminists approach the problem.
Modern-day prostitution in Thailand seems to be essentially a continuation of that country’s age-old practice of female sex slavery. Before slavery was outlawed in the 19th century, low-class and “surplus” women were routinely sold as slave-wives. When slavery was abolished, the slave-wives transmuted into prostitutes.
Young girls are kidnapped in the rural villages or sold by their families as sex slaves; once they are imprisoned in brothels they are beaten, raped, physically prevented from leaving, and burdened with debt slavery so that the girls owe their owners for their food, medicine, and their own purchase price.
Foreign women are increasingly trafficked into Thai brothels as well, almost always under false pretenses (the women being told that they are going to jobs as waitresses, etc.).
Prostitution is almost universally engaged in by Thai men and has been for centuries, though the American military presence seems to have clearly contributed to Thailand’s modern emergence as a sex destination for foreigners.
Prostitution has been technically illegal in Thailand for the past few decades, though it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Child prostitution and slave trafficking are also illegal, and again, it makes no difference. The Thai government is interested now in re-legalizing the sex industry, undoubtedly tempted by the enormous potential tax revenues.
Legalization advocates argue that legalizing adult prostitution would give the prostitutes workers’ rights, labor protection, and so forth. I am frankly skeptical of this because what we’re looking at is a form of sex slavery that’s been going on for centuries and which has endured through various forms of legality and illegality. It is abundantly evident that Thai men — and the male-dominated Thai power structure — are not the slightest bit interested in the rights of female sex workers.
By the same token, this indifference also suggests the reason that anti-prostitution laws (both adult and child) and anti-trafficking laws have no effect.
But, I’m no expert on Thailand. And my little post here is not intended as an exhaustive description of the problem, since I’m sure we’ll flesh that out in the comments.
What I’ve read over the past few days has left me frankly depressed and feeling rather hopeless. The only thing I’m sure of is that Thai law needs to be adjusted so that the none of the women who are trafficked or enslaved are themselves liable to criminal prosecution. These people are victims, not criminals. It’s obscene and infuriating for these women — beaten, raped, and enslaved — to be treated like they’re the ones who have committed a crime.
Here are links to some of the material I’ve read on Thailand:
Coalition Against Trafficking in Women Factbook: Thailand
Prostitution in Thailand: What’s the Solution?
*****
Moderation Update — Please read:
I’ve decided that I need to establish some ground rules for this discussion, rules that will also apply to further installments of the prostitution debate.
What I would like to do in these threads is explore various approaches to prostitution, from both anti-prostitution feminists and pro-prostitution feminists. I want both sex-positive feminists and anti-pornstitution radical feminists to feel welcome here. But the only way that’s going to happen is if everyone feels that their views will be given a respectful hearing and that they themselves will not be subjected to ad hominem attacks.
That means I don’t want to see radfem anti-pornstitution feminists attacked as being self-righteous man-hating puritans who are just out to control other people’s sex lives. I don’t want to see sex-positive feminists attacked as being selfish hedonists who are just out for their own gratification at the expense of others’ suffering. Unfortunately, there’s such a history of antagonism that it’s amazingly difficult to have a discussion around the issues without this kind of mud getting thrown. People who might wish to comment in this thread are not doing so because they don’t want to be slimed.
So, though I’m not usually the Moderation Queen, I’ve decided to establish rules of engagement for these threads:
1. Assume that each person is arguing from a genuinely pro-woman feminist stance.
2. Do not impugn each other’s motives. If you can’t see how someone else’s idea will help women, then ask, or very politely express your doubts. Perhaps the other person isn’t seeing the whole picture? Perhaps she hasn’t thought of aspects you are aware of? Don’t instead imply that the other person doesn’t really want to help women and is just on a personal power/gratification trip, yadeyadeyade. Just don’t.
3. Accommodate each other’s rhetoric. Radical feminists often speak in general terms of class analysis: “Men” do this, “women” do that. Sex-positive feminists often speak in personal terms: “what about my liberty?” We know that, so let’s not get bogged down in it. Radfems are not essentialists who are unaware of personal variation, and sex-positives are not navel-gazers who are unaware that the patriarchy exists. Just take each other’s language in stride and move on.
4. If all else fails, assume that the other person has the brains of Einstein and the integrity of Nelson Mandela, even if she doesn’t see things quite your way.
Good luck.
143 Responses to “Prostitution Debate Part 1: Thailand”
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Mandos says:
Hi Violet, my first post will be a derailment for the Greater Good:
http://scienceblogs.com/cognit.....post_2.php
Sex may not sell as well as we think…
June 1st, 2006 at 12:03 am EST -
Rukungiri Kisangani says:
I’ve blogged on related items here:
The links on the left of that page will take you to the interesting stuff.
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Rukungiri Kisangani says:
Sorry, here is the link
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Violet says:
Oh, gee, thanks, a link from a right-wing sexist who likes to buy sex from slaves in Thailand and thinks trafficking doesn’t exist.
Fuck yourself, you freak.
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will says:
There are days that I think I must be a freak because I like sex with consenting, participating women in their 30’s and 40’s.
Of course, I do not have any experience having sex with 12 year old Thai sex slaves or 16 year old girls loaded up on drugs. So maybe it isnt a really fair comparision.
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Violet says:
Yep, you’re a freak, Will, a FREAK!
The news is so depressing I need to do a cheer-myself-up post. Maybe I’ll do a post on penises. Cheerful penises.
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will says:
Please dont do that. If I read a post about penises, will that make me gay!?!?!??!
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cicely says:
Martha Nussbaum argues in ‘Sex and Social Justice’ 1999 (pge 289) that the situation in Thailand ‘clearly deserves both moral condemnation and international legal pressure, but is made worse by the illegality of prostitution itself.’ As both illegal aliens and prostitutes, if trafficked women and young girls find themselves in police custody, after everything else they’ve endured, they are frequently further abused by the police.
If we’re looking at this situation practically, what are the options? The Swedish model, legalisation or de-criminalisation of prostitution, as far as I can see at present. I submit that the Swedish model would never, or in anything close to the short term, be entertained in Thailand, given the history you’ve outlined above, Violet.
You might well be skeptical about the likliehood of the situation improving greatly with legalisation, also given the history, but could you (or anyone) argue that criminalisation is the better of these two remaining options in the Thai situation?
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Violet says:
Cicely, after what I’ve been reading I’m not sure what would work.
I tend to think the Swedish approach might be most appropriate here, with the twin goals of completely removing any criminalization of the women, but applying full criminalization to the brothel-keepers and pimps. Because what the latter are doing, and have been doing, is clearly wrong on every level. These men are slavers and rapists.
The problem with full-scale legalization, removing any legal restraint on the brothel-keepers and pimps, is that it would do absolutely nothing to stop their current practices. In fact, I suspect at that point the government would be quite happy for the slave-trafficking to even increase, since they’d be getting a cut with the tax revenue.
Full-scale criminalization, with the prostitutes being treated as criminals, is of course completely wrong and obscene, as I noted in the post.
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belledame222 says:
Thanks for teasing these out; the Thailand level of exploitation def. deserved a separate consideration, will be looking at those lengths in more detail later, when I have more time.
wrt Sweden: is the criminalization for pimps only? or also for the customers? because I could see the latter getting dicey rather quickly.
as for brothel owners…I wonder what’s meant. I mean, technically if you ran a house of domination, would you be a brothel owner? an escort service? I’ll have to do more research here.
incidentally, I was looking up some papers (from an anti-perspective) about the legalization (not decriminalziation) in Victoria; it was interesting. will have to root those up.
finally,perhaps somewhat tangentially, this looks to be a useful clearinghouse:
http://vawnet.org/Intersections/GeneralResearch/
National Resource Center on Domestic Violence’s section on “intersections” of domestic/sexual violence with other factors such as poverty, racism, disabilities, and so on.
particularly this piece:
http://www.un.org/WCAR/e-kit/trafficking_e.pdf
“The Race Dimensions of Trafficking in Persons–Especially Women and Children”
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belledame222 says:
–anyway, wrt the Victoria business, it looked to me from a not-as-in-depth reading as I mean to do later as though a good chunk of the continuing problem came from it having been “legalized” rather than simply decriminalized. so that for instance a woman couldn’t work out of her own home, but had to go work in a brothel–it sounded more like the Las Vegas model (what I know of it is problematic) than anything.
I mean, I wonder what would happen if sex work was treated like any other business, no more no less, with the equivalent of OSHA rules for workplace safety and so on (in this case including such stuff as condoms), different sorts of licensing/tax forms for setting up as self-employed, health insurance, and so on? Maybe most closely based on what’s done wrt non-erotic physical therapy and/or counselling. and meanwhile harshly stepping up punitive measures for any sort of abuse. but get rid of all “vice crimes.” *Is* there anywhere where they do something like this?
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gordo says:
It’s hard for me to see legalization changing anything for the sex workers. Just look at the way women working in factories are treated in Thailand.
I think that any proposals of legalization would come primarily from politically-connected brothel owners who wanted to eliminate competition from streetwalkers and smaller brothel operators, but it could also be that the government is taking a genuine interest in enticing tourists or slowing the spread of AIDS.
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Violet says:
but it could also be that the government is taking a genuine interest in enticing tourists or slowing the spread of AIDS.
From what I’ve read, it seems that the government is taking a genuine and profound interest in increasing their tax revenues. They want a cut of the slave market.
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Violet says:
The obvious thing here is that this cultural thing has to be rooted out; that’s where the change may lie. I mean the culture of women=shit, acceptance of sex slavery, etc.
Some Thais are talking about, or maybe have started, an education program aimed at boys and girls in elementary school. There are Buddhists trying to approach the problem using the leverage of religious ideals. These seem like long-range investments, which is of course needed, but I don’t know if they will help short-term.
Of course, if the world community actually gave a shit about women’s human rights, then serious international measures could be taken. But of course that doesn’t happen. The U.N. makes noises and issues Declarations and shit, but nobody actually considers the abuse of female humans to be worth worrying too much about. If they did, several countries in the world would have already been subjected to the kind of pressure the international community put on apartheid South Africa.
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will says:
I will never forget my amazement when I first found out that you could get a blow job for $10 or $15 in Richmond. Sex cost you a whopping $25.00.
These guys would get arrested and come to me and all I could think was “that is all these women are getting?!??!??!”
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Paul Tergeist says:
While I would love to contribute to this discussion, I have exactly the same amount of experience with the subject of Thai prostitution as Violet: none, nil, zippo. So how can I discuss it?
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Alon Levy says:
wrt Sweden: is the criminalization for pimps only? or also for the customers? because I could see the latter getting dicey rather quickly.
It’s for pimps as well as customers.
I tend to think the Swedish approach might be most appropriate here, with the twin goals of completely removing any criminalization of the women, but applying full criminalization to the brothel-keepers and pimps.
To be honest, I’m not sure any kind of legalization or criminalization will change much. Germany’s experience teaches us that legalization needs to be accompanied by destigmatization (is that even a word?) to be effective. The only concrete thing I can glean from the information I have is that the most promising route is to try to cut the trafficking rings off at the source, i.e. in the villages the prostitutes come from. Discouraging consumption will be too ineffective, and changing the legal situation pointless as long as Big Pimping can game the system.
Off-topic: are you interested in the question of why some movements are more effective than others, and in particular why some are more prone to schisms? I’m asking because a) it’s relevant to feminist activism, and b) I have a few ideas about it I’d like to flesh out over the next few days so that I can try pitching them at Yearly Kos.
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Alon Levy says:
While I would love to contribute to this discussion, I have exactly the same amount of experience with the subject of Thai prostitution as Violet: none, nil, zippo. So how can I discuss it?
Decide in ten seconds what fits your ideology the most. Then make up or cherry-pick facts to support that position. In other words, do what we all do…
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cicely says:
If they did, several countries in the world would have already been subjected to the kind of pressure the international community put on apartheid South Africa.
Are you a mind-reader? I began an aborted post with a reference to exactly this last night. The problem is, it’s everywhere and even at its worst in multiple countries. Brutal oppression of women, I mean, not just sex slavery. Other ‘national interests’ take priority in this complex, fragile and volatile world. But that’s only stating the horribly bleeding obvious.
As you know, along with belledame, I favour complete de-criminalisation of prostitution overall. Legalisation just brings a new set of problems and potentialities for abuse by ‘guardians’ of the special rules. I think international co-operation on issues like border control, detecting and reporting on tourists having sex with under-age girls so that they’re convicted of the crime in their home countries - as has started to happen in Australia. I don’t know how this is being achieved but we need a lot more of it. I would at least consider the Swedish model, like really look at it, as an emergency and temporary solution to a particular problem, if on examination it looked like it would really have an impact and on balance not further impoverish or endanger already marginalised women who are sex workers. (i.e. leave them unsupported.) But I wouldn’t like to see it entrenched even if it were possible to establish in the first place in Thailand. I am opposed to feeding an anti-sex-work climate if it can be avoided. I’m pretty stumped to be honest. I need more information.
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cicely says:
Oh, btw, belledame, prostitution has been de-criminalised in New-Zealand for a few years now. I’ve forgotten how many. There are still for and against arguements about the results to date (and always will be I suspect). By which I mean in part that there is some evidence that more and younger women, esp drug addicted or otherwise disadvantaged women are entering prostitution who may not have done otherwise. That is a concern, but I’m thinking not enough of one to turn back the clock to some patchwork and unsatisfactory legalisation approach. At least problems that might or do accrue can be dealt with openly and unambiguosly when no aspect of prostitution, just because it’s prostitution, is a crime.
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cicely says:
The ‘Race Dimensions of trafficking in Persons - Especially women and Children’ article (thanks for the link, belledame) makes depressing reading when you consider how many people must be involved in this. Not only men, I have to say. I saw a documentary a few weeks ago which followed an Eastern European man trying to find his wife. A male ‘friend’ had accompanied her into a city or town, ostensibly as a favour, and sold her to sex traffickers. The husband did a bit of detective work and discovered who had bought her. He pretended to be another trafficker and tried to persuade the people holding her that it would be safer for them to sell her on to him, because she could cause trouble which he could handle better. I can’t remember what reason he gave for that - but he knew a simple human appeal for the return of his wife would certainly fall on deaf ears. The thing is, the person he had a face to face negotiation with in a neutral cafe (which was secretly filmed), was a woman. By the end of the doco the man still hadn’t been re-united with his wife. Another secret filming was of a different woman. She was escorting a group of duped girls on a ferry. On arrival at the wharf she accepted payment from a man. She was later (again secretly) filmed sitting at a table with a bunch of people discussing her ‘business’.
I know I shouldn’t have been surprised, I’ve come across one or two cruel and dangerous women in my time, but it was still a reality check for me. And of course I’ve heard about those rich women in at least one Asian country - Singapore, Alon? - who treat the - Philipino (I think) housemaids/slaves so badly and occasionally even murder them. Stuff of nightmares. For some reason a cruel woman impacts on me emotionally much harder and more directly than a cruel man. I get very sad and very angry when it’s a man, but I feel a kind of fearful, nauseating and ‘personal’ revulsion when it’s a woman hurting another woman. ok, that’s my little rave, now I must go to work…
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gordo says:
Cicely–
Ill treatment of Filipino maids? A lot of countries have that problem, including the Philippines.
And that woman who was caught trafficking in sex slaves — was it Phyllis Schlafly?
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Alon Levy says:
And of course I’ve heard about those rich women in at least one Asian country - Singapore, Alon? - who treat the - Philipino (I think) housemaids/slaves so badly and occasionally even murder them. Stuff of nightmares.
Probably Singapore. I once read an article in the Herald Tribune that said that every other Filipina maid in Singapore was abused. I haven’t heard of a widespread servicide (?) problem in Singapore, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t one. But what’s certain is that the Thai prostitutes who enter the country for two weeks at a time, solicit sex, get paid, and go back to Thailand are in a much better shape than the Filipina maids who’re made to work 16-hour days.
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cicely says:
Ill treatment of Filipino maids? A lot of countries have that problem, including the Philippines.
Gordo - There’s no getting away from race and class is there, and clearly these often trump gender in the oppression hierarchy. I must be feeling chatty. Did you ever see a movie called ‘Sister, My Sister.’? Julie Walters (best remembered by most people as Rita in ‘Educating Rita’) starred in it as a rich French widow living alone with her daughter. As a woman and a girl in late 19th or early 20th century France, they couldn’t ‘do’ much. You could feel how bored, imprisoned and bitter they felt, but at least they had power over the sisters who were their live in domestic servants. A concentrated study of four women’s heavily restricted and stilted lives with devastating results. Not light viewing, but utterly believable. I kind of identified with the servants. I always imagine myself as a scullery maid in England in a past life - nothing cosmic - just a logical traceback of my roots, if there weren’t any unusual events - like a rich male ancestor gambling away the families wealth in a gentlemen’s club. In fact I like to ask people where they see themselves in the social order if they’d lived a century or so ago. It can tell you something about a person.
And that woman who was caught trafficking in sex slaves — was it Phyllis Schlafly?
I’m sure this is funny, but this little kiwi in Oz isn’t quite getting it - sorry.
Alon wrote: But what’s certain is that the Thai prostitutes who enter the country for two weeks at a time, solicit sex, get paid, and go back to Thailand are in a much better shape than the Filipina maids who’re made to work 16-hour days.
Yep. I can see that. More power to them.
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Violet says:
Alon wrote: But what’s certain is that the Thai prostitutes who enter the country for two weeks at a time, solicit sex, get paid, and go back to Thailand are in a much better shape than the Filipina maids who’re made to work 16-hour days.
I don’t know that that’s true. Most of the Thai prostitutes are beholden to pimps who virtually own them; the great majority of their earnings go to the pimp, and on top of that they’re debt slaves who have to work off their purchase price. They have to service as many men as possible during the day, and when they’re on duty with one client on a trip it’s 24/7 servicing. And of course they get AIDS. I suspect it’s very possible that if the Thai prostitute and the Filipina maid compared notes they’d just find they were on different streets in hell.
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Violet says:
Off-topic: are you interested in the question of why some movements are more effective than others, and in particular why some are more prone to schisms?
Sure. Are you suggesting a thread on this? I don’t think I can comment at your blog anymore.
I’m sure this is funny, but this little kiwi in Oz isn’t quite getting it - sorry.
Phyllis Schlafly is a notorious American anti-feminist.
A concentrated study of four women’s heavily restricted and stilted lives with devastating results.
Similar theme, completely different setting: Raise the Red Lantern. Ever seen it?
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CR says:
I have also seen the ugly mistreatment of servants in Africa by foreigners. These are common folk who suddenly find themselves in a position of power over people and nowhere in their families past have they dealt with servants. People act crazy, power drunk. It is a situation where they can literally buy a man or woman for $60 a month. And the servant is so desperate for the job they will put up with anything.
In another life I like to think I was an sculptor artisan working on a church or something. Or an animal husbander. Always of the servant class. I like being a servant. I would rather be a great and favored bulter or groundsman/woman than the owner of the estate.
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CR says:
To belledame.
If you are researching real rape porno, the key words for such are in code language. As are child porno sites and cruelty to animals, and other nasty fetishes that people have developed within themselves. The websites are also hidden in amongst other porno sites or hidden in ‘legit” websites of another sort. You have to either stumble across them or you have to know the secret handshake. Which I do not know.
best wishes, -
cicely says:
I don’t know that that’s true. Most of the Thai prostitutes are beholden to pimps who virtually own them; the great majority of their earnings go to the pimp, and on top of that they’re debt slaves who have to work off their purchase price.
I preferred the picture I had in my head of independent women setting off on working trips. If I was going to work as a prostitute, where it was de-criminalised, I’d probably go into biz with a few other women, we’d have a receptionist and other admin staff and there’d be no need for any bastard pimps. We’d organise our own advertising and other marketing. The friends I talk about from years ago were young and very casual. We’d all just go to a bar together that was a known pick-up place, have a few drinks and a laugh, and the work would come to them bearing cigarettes and conversation and re-fills for their glasses. They wouldn’t go with anyone they thought was creepy and they wouldn’t go with anyone at all if they didn’t feel like it.
Similar theme, completely different setting: Raise the Red Lantern. Ever seen it?
No, I haven’t. I’d heard about it and forgotten about it - I’ll look it up now.
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cicely says:
In another life I like to think I was an sculptor artisan working on a church or something. Or an animal husbander. I like being a servant. I would rather be a great and favored bulter or groundsman/woman than the owner of the estate.
That sounds rather nice, CR (as my cooking teacher used to say). A bit of solitude, a bit of art, a bit of spirituality, a bit of two way unconditional love, a bit of good honest, hands on work, and a lot of respect.
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Alon Levy says:
I don’t know that that’s true. Most of the Thai prostitutes are beholden to pimps who virtually own them; the great majority of their earnings go to the pimp, and on top of that they’re debt slaves who have to work off their purchase price.
To clarify things, I’m talking about Thais who come to Singapore to hook, who as far as I know comprise most prostitutes here.
Sure. Are you suggesting a thread on this? I don’t think I can comment at your blog anymore.
Yes… and you can comment - you just need to register (or submit comments to moderation).
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belledame222 says:
Yes, Alon, clicking your profile no longer leads to any blog, you know–wasn’t sure what had happened.
I am with you both (cicely and Violet) wrt the piddling lip service given to the problem(s) by the U.N. and other large influential organizations at the policy level. that’s probably worth a paper or twelve in itself.
cicely, i’ll take your word for it wrt finding the real stuff–frankly not really wanting to, or kiddie porn, or any of that. anyhoo i certainly wouldn’t doubt that it exists–just, was a bit skeptical that it’s a large representative of even “extreme,” much less mainstream, porn, available (no one here said that was so, exactly, but sometimes reading some people i get the impression that they see a heavier skew toward the truly vile stuff than i do)
if it’s truly on the increase, i don’t know, but my cynical guess is that it has mainly to do with the technology explosion and more money to be made, same as all other really horrific shit that’s been on the increase since the advent of the Internets.
Raise the Red Lantern is good, if hell depressing.
Yes, I remember Sister my Sister–it is based on a famous true story that was also the basis of “The Maids” by Jean Genet (a very different take) and yet another recently released film, British I think, which focused more on the erotic/incestuous relationship between the sisters and what that might have been all about.
but in any of those, it is impossible to avoid the ugliness of that class system.
as far as women being horrible and cruel–see, i have never doubted that women are just as *capable* of cruelty as well as the full spectrum of human possibilities. Which does not make me any less a feminist, I submit; it just means I’m not an essentialist.
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Alon Levy says:
Yes, Alon, clicking your profile no longer leads to any blog, you know–wasn’t sure what had happened.
Oh, that’s a different thing. In general, you need to register to comment on UTI, or else your comments are submitted to a moderation queue. Right now UTI has some problems (you can still read it if you scroll down all the errors), and in particular it’s impossible to register or post.
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cicely says:
cicely, i’ll take your word for it wrt finding the real stuff–
The above is for CR, I believe…
as far as women being horrible and cruel–see, i have never doubted that women are just as capable of cruelty as well as the full spectrum of human possibilities. Which does not make me any less a feminist, I submit; it just means I’m not an essentialist.
belledame - I guess I’ve never really doubted it (the capability or the fact) either, we just see less of it I suppose. I read a book many years ago by a Russian poet, Irina Ratushinskaya, who wrote about her three and a half years (from March 1983) in a gulag staffed I think mainly by women. (Certainly women were cruel.) It’s a truly gut-wrenching book - the review on the back (I still have the book) says ‘Piercingly beautiful, gripping with its amazing stories of cruelty and survival…a strong distinctive voice in the swelling chorus of gulag literature…Ratushinskaya writes like an angel trapped in hell’. So, no illusions in fact, and this doesn’t make me any less of a feminist either.
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cicely says:
I meant to write the title of the book - It’s called ‘Grey is The Colour of Hope’.
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CR says:
Yes, Miss Cicely is right. That one was for me. And it’s not good for your eyes to see that stuff. Or your mind or your heart.
and I think you are absolutely rightt about the internet and the explosion of porno or all sorts and colors. The statistics prove what you are saying.
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CR says:
The debt is for real. and it’s not just Thailand. It’s all over and getting more so as the general public gets more appatite for such things. Alot of money to be made for the big wigs. That includes some of the people who sit behind a desk in a nice suit who’s entire job in the world is to be helping this problem. That’s a bit of a racket too for some people.
True story,
Foreign service government worker goes to Thailand on vacation. Tells wife and kids it’s business conference. Buys five little Mamasans for three days. Seen laying by the pool with big pot belly like King Farook for the weekend- drunk as the Lord, two girls giving him pedicure, another manicure, massage. They go up to hotel room. Nobody ashamed because other old farts at pool doing similar.Way to go.
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CR says:
All paid for by tax payer dollars. Hey you fancy reporter types, while you are exposing the $600 toilet seats. Why don’t you take a moment to see what else our taz dollars are paying for?
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CR says:
Wanna investigte something. Check out the foriegn service. It’ll be fun.
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Infidel says:
CR, you confirm what one might expect. That certainly is a shame. Still it wouldn’t do for the CIA to go in guns blazing, perhaps blending in and fact finding requires Bond like sacrifices for Queen and country.
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CR says:
It is so open that it wouldn’t require of Hercule Poirot or James Bond.
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Infidel says:
I wouldn’t know. Crimes against humanity should be prosecuted. Doesn’t an industry like this qualify?
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CR says:
I think it does qualify. And I think there’s lots of well paid folks not doing their jobs. Lots of luncheons and commitees and lectures and travelling from here to there going to meetings with breifcase and doing studies. But little real action. Lot of wheel spinning and high fallutin’ blabbage. It’s so open that I can take whoever by the hand and show them. It doesn’t take a sleuth. Authorities can go a long way in curtailing or cutting this stuff down if they want to. Some countries have. I would like to see more of it. It’s a modern crime against humanity that invovles millions- not thousands or hundreds- you said it, Indidel.
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cicely says:
‘Seven women were locked inside Melbourne apartments and made to work in brothels as part of a sex slave racket linked to a migration agent, police say.’
From The Australian Newspaper, 2/6/06. They were Thai women.
I need to check this, but I understand that only New Zealand citizens are permitted to work there as prostitutes, I assume as a way to address the issue of potential trafficking. (Reminder, prostitution is de-criminalised in NZ.)
If clients were obliged to view evidence of citizenship of any country before receiving sexual services from a prostitute, maybe this would help - at least with the trafficking aspect. What is so appalling about the male demand for prostitutes is that far too many men have no qualms or queries at all about how a given sex worker came to be in the industry, or the fact that she may clearly be under-age. There must be a way to put responsibilty where it belongs in this case. The men should also be obliged to report an absence of id to the police. They could do this anonymously, but make a note of the time they called it in and the place they called it in from so this can be verified if that somehow becomes necessary in a defence later on. A spotlight could surely be shone on men’s behaviour without having to make them criminals for using sexual services at all, as is the case in Sweden. Off the top of my head. Probably has holes, but I do think that the positive thing about the Swedish model is that the issue of entitlement is addressed. I wouldn’t go as far as they have, but I’d certainly go so far as to make men criminally responsible for buying sex from any prostitute where there is doubt about her willingness or the appropriateness of her age.
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Greg Hill says:
Unbelieveable. I very much doubt the person who has written this has ever stepped foot in Thailand. So uninformed , spun and pathetic it does not merit further comment.
Prostitution in Thailand is a problem. The person who wrote this tripe has no idea what that problem is.
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cicely says:
Greg Hill says:
Unbelieveable. I very much doubt the person who has written this has ever stepped foot in Thailand. So uninformed , spun and pathetic it does not merit further comment.
Prostitution in Thailand is a problem. The person who wrote this tripe has no idea what that problem is.
To which tripe do you refer, Greg Hill come lately?
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Sam says:
“Probably has holes, but I do think that the positive thing about the Swedish model is that the issue of entitlement is addressed. I wouldn’t go as far as they have,”
Why not? My pro & con Swedish model list is heavy on the pro side, and I’m interested in seeing how your pro & con list compares.
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Mandos says:
I think that sexual entitlement is the biggest issue here. Under capitalism (at LEAST), if you want something, and you can pay for it, you’re entitled. How is sexual entitlement via prostitution different from T-shirt entitlement via retail? I mean this honestly and not as someone who would automatically assume T-shirt entitlement either.
One of the biggest fractures between the proporn and the antiporn sides, I think, is the issue of sexual entitlement. The antiporn side, to put a very crude gloss on it, believes fundamentally that no one is entitled to sex. The proporn side would probably believe, in general, that women should be as entitled to sex as men are…
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Sam says:
But women aren’t using prostitutes and men are. Women aren’t raping women and men are. Women don’t look at homeless men and think, “I can pay that poor person money to shove objects like fingers, bottles, and guns in and out of his asshole while videotaping it for my eternal amusement.” Men do.
The problem isn’t just that men feel entitled to sex, it’s that men feel entitled to sexually abuse poverty-stricken women and children for the power trip. If men just wanted to fuck women who would rather not fuck them but do so for desperately needed money the issue might not be so clear cut, but men have proven in word and deed that prostitution, much like rape, is experienced by johns more as power and control over women than as satisfying sex with women.
Men in central Africa were asked whether they preferred sex with genitally-mutilated women or uncut women. The men unanimously said they preferred sex with uncut women but hastened to add that though they sought sex with uncut girlfriends and prostitutes they would only marry an uncut women. Men’s control of women winning over men’s own sexual satisfaction is patriarchy. It is the thought behind every slur for sexual women, every utterance of slut, hussy, tart, trollop, strumpet, whore, ho, and floozy meant to make women feel bad for being sexual when horndog logic says sex-seeking men would want to encourage women’s sexual licentiousness. Superiority over women feels better and lasts longer than the best sexual encounters with women.
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Violet says:
Sam, I’m glad you’re here because I want to know what you think the agenda should be for Thailand. We know what needs to happen — or rather, what needs to stop happening — but how do we get there?
I was reading a Thai feminist the other day who also subscribes to the education approach — start schooling the little ones in gender equality — but also seems to be asking for international help. It was just an interview though, so I’ve been unable to find out what specifically she has in mind.
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belledame222 says:
>But women aren’t using prostitutes
A few are.
>Women aren’t raping women
More than you’d think, do, in point of fact.
>Women don’t look at homeless men and think, “I can pay that poor person money to shove objects like fingers, bottles, and guns in and out of his asshole while videotaping it for my eternal amusement.” Men do.>
Boy, that’s…well, vivid. I mean, yeah, wow, so…most? some? all? men who go to prostitutes and/or rent porn do it primarily because they want to shove fingers, guns, and bottles in and out of his/her/hir asshole, as a form of financial humiliation? Really.
And if they’re not doing it, they’re thinking about it, -men- are.
But I would never do that, viciously exploit a poor homeless person or even think of such a terrible thing, because I’m a woman, and women don’t do that. So, I might be a potential victim, but I’m not like -that;- statistically, it’s damn near impossible.
Well, knowing this makes me feel terrible, but at least simplifies my moral universe a little bit; so, thanks.
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Violet says:
I think what Sam is alluding to is the widespread sexual violence and exploitation that men commit against women in our heavily patriarchal male-dominated society. Of course not all men are rapists, but 99% of rapists are men. It’s a fact that our twisted society means that men overwhelmingly commit rape, use and abuse prostitutes, and so forth. That’s part of the patriarchy, that’s part of what we’re all fighting, surely.
If Sam were making an essentialist argument about the nature of men then I’m betting her agenda would be, “kill the fuckers.” But since she’s advocating for change and looking to a world where men and women are equal and male sexual violence against women isn’t pandemic, then surely it’s safe to say she does not believe men are intrinisically evil or violent.
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belledame222 says:
>It is the thought behind every slur for sexual women, every utterance of slut, hussy, tart, trollop, strumpet, whore, ho, and floozy meant to make women feel bad for being sexual>
Yes, that’s so. But you know something: that’s not the only way possible of making women feel bad for being sexual, -men-calling nasty names.
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belledame222 says:
I don’t know Sam well enough to say whether she’s essentialist or not. I will say that answering a remark like this:
>The proporn side would probably believe, in general, that women should be as entitled to sex as men are…>
with a sweeping denunication of “men” as being the ones who do terribly graphic things, which would not be at all triggering for anyone, by the way…it sure *sounds* like potential essentialism. More to the point; I’m not seeing where the change comes in, here. The suggestion was and has been that one approach might be that women can make erotica/porn to please themselves; apparently the evil that men do ensures that this simply isn’t possible? that egalitarian porn that treats women as a subject can’t or doesn’t exist? Help me out, here.
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belledame222 says:
That is to say: if in fact men aren’t intrinsically violent (any more so than women), perhaps it might make sense to start saying, okay, how can we as nonviolent women and evolved men/other-gendered people represent ourselves? Why, we could potentially create our own erotic art, books, drawings, videos. This is not sufficient of itself to solve the problem of gross, widespread exploitation as in (getting back on topic) Thailand. I’m still not clear on how the one somehow cancels out the other, however.
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belledame222 says:
Personally, I wish *someone* would come straight out and just advocate “kill the fuckers;” no one since Valerie Solanas has come close, and it’d be so much more *fun,* dammit.
Of course, there are rewards inherent in *not* straight-out killing the fuckers (or even advocating this) even if one does, in fact, believe at heart that the fuckers cannot, will not ever truly change; for a start, one can avoid being sent to jail. Simultaneously, one could have a never-ending supply of enemies to fight, rhetorically speaking, which is a pleasure not to be underestimated.
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Violet says:
belledame, have you ever read The Queen of the Damned (Anne Rice)?
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cicely says:
Sam - It’s easy to see why you’ve been tempted to take it that the male use of female prostitutes is more about power over women than it is about sex. Despite the patriarchal context though, I think it’s impossible if not absurd to take this as a given. Something that hasn’t been mentioned at all in these discussions so far is the long tradition of rent boys or hustlers, now referred to as sex workers - male prostitutes (some of whom are bi or even heterosexual - and I know this because I met one years ago) catering to the gay (including closet gay) male market. You can’t take sex right out of the equation whether the client is purchasing services from a man or a woman. Which is one reason why I wouldn’t go as far as Sweden has. Criminalising anyone just feels wrong to me for the simple reason that I see nothing intrinsically wrong with either the purchasing or the selling of sexual services. Even if your list of pros v cons re the Swedish model is longer, (and I need to follow this up again) the basis of the law is wrong, imo.
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belledame222 says:
Here is an article on the Swedish model that sums up some of the trepidations that I’ve been having. For a start, the notion that “all forms of prostitution are, by definition, violence.” I do not agree with this. It goes on from there:
“What has been the effect of the law on sex workers in Sweden? First, it is important to note that the issue of how the law would affect sex workers was of relatively little interest to the Social Democratic League of Women and other groups who were instrumental in getting it passed. Although many of these groups supported the move to criminalize only the clients of prostitutes - on the grounds that prostitutes themselves are oppressed victims - when they were confronted with the possibility that the law might drive sex work underground and make sex workers more vulnerable to exploitation by profiteers, representatives consistently responded that the purpose of the law was first and foremost to ‘mark a stance’ or ’send a message’ that ’society’ did not accept prostitution; hence, the impact of the law on prostitutes was not their primary concern.
Immediately after the law began to be enforced, police noted a drop in the numbers of street prostitutes. This may have something to do with the fact that policemen, who had been allotted 7 million Swedish kronor ($650,000 USD) to enforce the new law, immediately began making their presence on the streets where sex workers worked very visible. Armed with video cameras, which they ostentatiously pointed at any car that slowed down near a sex worker, they effectively frightened away clients, thus driving the sex workers off the streets. Since the law came into effect, four government reports have been commissioned to evaluate it and to recommend how it might be enforced. The latest report gives these figures:
[numbers follow
In other words, it seems that the number of street prostitutes has diminished since 1999. However, even the government sponsored report that gives these figures admits that it is impossible to know whether this change is because of the law against purchasing sexual services, or because the sexual market has changed due to mobile phones and the Internet. And note that these figures are only about street prostitution. There are no reliable figures on other forms of prostitution, and all of the government commissioned reports concludes that it is in fact impossible to know whether the law has resulted in a significant drop in prostitution in Sweden.
Indeed, researchers report that the passage of the law corresponded with an increase of the number of sex ads on the Internet. Sexworkers interviewed in the mass media report that women with drug problems have been driven to desperation and even suicide by the new law, since they have been unable to put ads on the Internet and make up for the clients they lost as a result of the law. Social workers agree that the law has made it more difficult for them to reach prostitutes. Police report that their efforts to prosecute pimps and traffickers has been made more difficult because clients, who before the passage of the law were sometimes willing to serve as witnesses, are now disinclined to cooperate, since they themselves are guilty of a crime.]
…Police harassment of prostitutes has increased - they can be forced to appear in court to provide testimony against the client (they can refuse to witness, but they are still summoned and sometimes escorted to courtrooms), and whenever they are caught with a client, their belongings are searched and they may be frisked. Anything that police think they can use as evidence against clients (such as condoms) are confiscated. In those cases where a man was caught with a condom on his penis in the back of his car, police have used that fact to argue that he was breaking the law. This practice clearly has consequences for condom use among sexworkers. It provides both them and their clients with strong incentives to avoid using them. The law has been a catastrophe for non-Swedish sexworkers - if the prostitute found with a client is not a citizen or legal resident of Sweden, she is immediately deported; in fact government prosecutors complain that in a number of cases they were unable to gain convictions against clients because the prostitutes they were found with had been deported before they could even give a statement. This fact affects the willingness of non-residents to report on violence. A police chief in the north of Sweden is quoted as saying that, ‘I don’t think for example that a Russian woman would dare to report a man for violence against her, because then she would risk not being given a visa if she ever wanted to come back to Sweden, because it would have become known that she is a prostitute’. The only positive thing for sexworkers that perhaps can to be said to have emerged from this law is that it seems that some of them have used it to rob clients or blackmail them, telling them that if they didn’t cough up more money, they would turn them into the police. Of course, both robbery and blackmail are much more serious crimes than purchasing sexual services, so if a client goes to the police, the sexworker risks much harsher penalties than the client she robbed or attempted to blackmail.”
***
And Sam’s last comment wrt it being men who use bottles and guns and so forth ratchets up my suspicion that the support for this sort of law is based more in a desire for punitive retribution than anything else. O.K., so now the male clients are the bad ones. But how does this help the women, per se? Even disregarding all the specific ways in which this law has caused unintended problems, according to the author of the above article, I still see the law as problematic in *conception:* why assume that prostitution is *automatically* equivalent to violence?
Well, if you’re gonna start talking about men’s sick desires to use bottles and guns on women (as opposed to simply wanting to have sex for money), that would make your case more convincing, I expect. No, don’t -kill- the fuckers. Just punish the fuckers.
And the women who’d made a career out of sex work, for bteter or for worse, and still need to make a living? Specifically: now what?
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belledame222 says:
Sorry about the crappy formatting, there.
Haven’t been a big Anne Rice fan, although I like the idea of at least some of her work; her style’s a bit…something…for me. But yeah, dark-tinged hurt-comfort-y boy-on-boy= Teh Fun, sometimes, sure.
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Violet says:
No, but I mentioned Queen of the Damned because the Queen, having awakened from millenia of sleep and regarded the sad state of affairs on Earth, decides that since men commit the overwhelming majority of violence, the thing to do is just thin their ranks.
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belledame222 says:
Aha.
I kind of enjoyed Myra Breckinridge’s approach, myself…
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belledame222 says:
btw, here’s a link to a Guardian article on German models vs. Swedish models from a website where I *think* is where I saw the Victoria fisking. the site itself, Prostitution Research, seems slanted toward the Dworkin view of prostitution (it *is* violence); the Guardian link (”Streets Apart”_ interests me. clearly I have a lot of research cut out for me. (Did someone say New Zealand has decriminalized, as opposed to government-regulated legalisation?)
But as problematic as the article makes the German/Dutch model, with its red light districts and so on, to be, no question, it all sounds…complicated. I could agree with this, for instance:
>Roger Matthews, professor of sociology at Middle-sex University, is clear about what is needed. “A welfare-oriented strategy is the only way to get women out. Unless we literally provide everything they need, such as drug rehabilitation, housing, childcare and counselling, they are likely to die.>
and this sounds ghastly:
>I visit Europe’s oldest tolerance zone, often described by UK advocates of legalisation as an example of best practice. Unlike the zones that have been shut due to criminal activity, this one, I’m told, runs like clockwork. At the Marco Polo police station in Utrecht, half an hour’s drive from Amsterdam, I meet Officer Jan Schoenmaker, responsible for policing the zone. In April, he was part of a delegation that visited Liverpool at the request of the local council, which is keen to set up its own tolerance zone.
Schoenmaker is proud of his work. He takes us to the enclosure where sex takes place, just behind the Tippelzone. There are 12 parking spaces separated by 6ft-high wooden partitions, as well as one for cyclists, or those who wish to stand up to have sex. “The council haven’t cleaned up yet,” he explains. “They do it on Sundays.” The floors of the cubicles are littered with tissues, used condoms and cigarette butts. There are empty food cartons, clumps of hair and human excrement, and, incongruously, torn gift-wrapping paper. In one, a pair of men’s underpants lies among the debris. How does having a designated area keep the women safe? “They have to come to the police station to register before starting work, so we can make sure they are not trafficked or underage. Also, we know who to look for if they disappear.”
Schoenmaker translates some graffiti on the wall. “Dear kerb crawlers, we hate you men. We want to get as much money from you as possible.” A response scrawled opposite reads, “Fucking whores, you must be fucked until you drop on the ground. We fuck and suck you until your cunt is very sore. Thank you.”
Do the women ever report violent attacks? “Oh yes, we do get that. I am recommending that the cubicles are painted different colours, so a woman could say, ‘I was raped in the red cubicle’ which would make DNA testing easier. Imagine looking for DNA among all this,” he sighs, pointing to the mountain of semen-soaked articles covering the ground..>
***
There’s also this, though, from a worker, herself:
>”I wouldn’t be here if anyone had ever tried to help me get out,” she says, rubbing her hands against the cold. “The only help that exists for us is free condoms. I don’t like what I do, but to most people here it’s a sound profession. I’d like to see them come out of their offices and try it.” Why doesn’t she work in one of the zones, or from a window? “No way am I giving my money to pimps. When you work in red light areas, they know where to find you.”>
and this:
>As the law was introduced, the government released €800,000 (£539,000) to services to assist women to leave the sex industry. Supporters of the legislation see it as part of a long-term strategy to eradicate prostitution, and raising public awareness seems to be working: a 2003 opinion poll found that 80% of the public supports the law. In April, Swedish children on a school trip to Kenya filmed their teachers apparently fraternising with prostitutes and entering a brothel in a red light area, and went public with the footage after the headmaster refused to act. One said it was “disgusting that we had gone to help these people for them to be exploited in this way”.
Nevertheless, there are vocal critics of the Swedish model. Petra Östergren, a Swedish writer and social commentator, says the very women who are at the centre of prostitution policy are rarely heard and often feel discriminated against. “Most of the sex workers I have interviewed reject the idea that there is something intrinsically wrong with their profession, or that they should be subjected to therapy or retrained.>
***
I just keep coming back to this, from Ally Work:
“”If you have come to help me, please go home. But if you have come because your liberation is somehow bound with mine, then we may work together.”
There is a certain…tone…from the “all prostitution is violence” camp that makes me uneasy. I get the concern, I can totally see how legalising (and probably decriminalization, if such exists; need to read up) all by itself doesn’t necessarily make things better for a lot of women, may even make things worse (or maybe just as bad in a slightly different way) for some.
But I’m picking up a sort of…”we’re trying to HELP you, dammit!! WHY don’t you appreciate being helped?!” that’s familiar to me from other sorts of “clean up the streets” activism (I am thinking of the War On Drugs, here, and eight bazillion ways in which social work can go wonky).
Again, I keep coming back to: if *some* women, even a very few, are making a career that they actually enjoy (obviously a world away from the women working the red light districts; Carol Queen and so forth) through sex work…why lump them in with the whole “prostitution *must* equal violence” business? Is there not maybe another framework in which to look at all this, for a start?
Sorry; anyway, back to Thailand.
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belledame222 says:
oops, link:
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belledame222 says:
one last bit from that article I’d meant:
>Rafferty would advocate legalisation, because she believes it will increase safety for the women, but she would also introduce an “anti-monopolisation” clause: “In Amsterdam, a handful of pimps own the windows and brothels, and the women have to pay them a small fortune. How can you be independent in those circumstances?”>
it’s a good question.
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CR says:
I think that this is to stop street prostitution and what it does to a nieghbourhood. Citizens just want it off the streets. Also, they wanted to slow down some of the human trafficing for the purpose of sex work into their nation.
I don’t know where you guys live, but I can see what they are trying to do. They did it in my neighbourhood as well. It changed the entire culture of the place for the better in a matter of 7 years. The place is unrecognizable from what it was 7 years ago. You may see this as bad. But everyone who lives around here were glad that somebody finally did something about it. Crime, drug dealing, and girls hanging around every corner, leaning into cars, propositioning men at stop lights, johns driving around, cars parked in residential streets for the purpose of having sex. The hotels and motels- families and tourists no longer wanted to stay there. Restaurants and businesses on the same street are much happier now. The change created a little revitalization of the entire town.
And another happy story. Just last week a foreign worker in the sex industry in Spain, got a job as a dishwasher for a catering service. She works six days a week- 3-10 pm making 900 Euros per month. Asked her how does she like it as compared to the other job? She said she was very calmer, clearer headed and happier than she had been in years. She never wants to go back to that depressing and mentally ruinous life. She has time in day to improve herself, recouperate and regroup. and work on her dreams.
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cicely says:
(Did someone say New Zealand has decriminalized, as opposed to government-regulated legalisation?)
Yes indeed. Decriminalisation came into effect in 2003 in NZ. I favour this approach over all others. The world is apparently comparing the NZ approach with that of Sweden in terms of rationale and outcomes. These are my two favourite countries in the world! I’m a kiwi living in OZ and I’ve greatly admired Swedish social policy for years. It feels strange to be at odds with Sweden over this. Helen Clark, NZ’s labour party (social democrat) Prime Minister says herself that she feels that the two governments are very similar in outlook, so she might be feeling a bit strange as well. Anyway. You’ve posted a couple of excerpts I’ve also posted here before about the negative impact of the Swedish law on prostitutes. There are bits and pieces to support or attack whatever approach we might take, it seems. You’ve posted bits I haven’t seen as well - like the quote about the aim in Sweden being to eradicate prostitution. This is a greater and greater divide. Just utterly irreconcilable differences. Sorry, a bit of frustration or maybe resignation setting in.
Here’s what Sue Bradford of the Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand had to say in Parliament on the eve of the vote for the Law Reform which was passed. She mentions the impact on prostitutes in Sweden as well.
I don’t know how to do links so you’ll have to copy and paste this into the address bar….
http//www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/speech6050.html
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cicely says:
I tried the copy and paste thingy and got taken to autosearch then to yahoo. That’s ok, click on that no. 1 entry - ‘Prostitution Reform Bill, Green Party, second reading - if this happens to you!
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CR says:
Oh well, I will just say one more thing about this very psecial person who I wrote about. Her dream is to create excellent cuisine from her home country that is tweeked to be more liked by Spanish people and tourists from other countries. She is already an artist at this. They are all her own designed recipes. She has like 20 or 30 of them. Yet she has no credentials in this area. The catering dish washing job has lots of potential for upward mobility for her.
It’s not a lost cause. There’s plenty of little things regular folks can do to help if they feel like it. No has to feel like they have move mountains. Have provided many little practical things in my posts on this subject.
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cicely says:
As a first case study, let’s talk about Thailand. I don’t suppose we’re going to come up with the magic bullet solution, but I’m interested in comparing how pro- and anti-prostitution feminists approach the problem.
So, to conclude, Violet, the longer I think about, read about, debate about this issue - which I hadn’t done so consciously in a long time before I started engaging on blogs etc on the net, (only last year) the more convinced I’ve become that de-criminalisation of prostitution ought to be the goal in any country, including Thailand. It doesn’t solve all the entrenched problems associated with it overnight, or in any shortish period of time, and it doesn’t rid the world of sexism, including violent expressions of it, but that doesn’t stop it being the right thing to do. If possibly millions of prostitutes around the world are forced into criminality either as themselves for the work they do (for whatever reason), or as the service providers for clients who are criminalised because they use the prostitutes services, they remain more isolated, vulnerable and stigmatised than people in any other kind of work. Legalisation does nothing to alleviate these conditions either. Some feminists talk about the danger of ‘normalising’ the commidification of women’s bodies if prostitution is de-criminalised. Is it better to continue with the ‘normal’ society view of prostitutes we’ve all grown up with? Scum of the earth, expendable, or even, alternatively, as utterly powerless, agency -less victims of male violence whose work can never in any way be sanctioned - for their own good? Even more burdensomely (word?) - for the ‘good of all women’? I don’t think so.
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Violet says:
Cicely, you’ve caught me as I’m getting ready for bed, but I’m going to post more on this thread tomorrow.
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Violet says:
I’ve updated the post with some moderation rules; please read them (in the body of the post, at the bottom) before continuing. Thanks.
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belledame222 says:
o.k.
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Violet says:
Cicely, could you explain how decriminalization and legalization differ in your mind? Generally when I see these distinguished, the idea is that legalization means that the government is supervising the business, and decriminalization means the government is completely out of the picture.
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cicely says:
Generally when I see these distinguished, the idea is that legalization means that the government is supervising the business, and decriminalization means the government is completely out of the picture.
Violet - Broadly speaking, that’s right. With legalisation you get a patchwork of rules and regulations that can be changed on a whim and which can be and often are abused by the people who’s job it is to enforce them - usually the police. Is there anyone alive who hasn’t heard of police getting free sex from prostitutes? And of course there are many other ways of using the illegality of some aspects as leverage against prostitutes. Red light districts are set up and controlled, how long a client can curb-crawl - which impacts on prostitute’s ability to screen men, what constitutes a brothel etc. Only very, very recently in England a law has been passed permitting prostitutes to work in two’s or threes from one address - for safety. In short, prostitutes have little to no control over issues that impact on them directly under legalisation, and they are last in the queue to have their interests considered.
With de-criminalisation the patchwork is gone. Rules and regulations that apply to all people and businesses apply to prostitution. (Including health and safety laws) Recently the Auckland City council was refused the right to disallow a brothel in a particular place. They argued that brothels attract a bad element, other crime etc. The government said that may no longer be considered a given, and if anti-social behaviour or other crimes do occur in connection with the brothel they will be treated for what they are at the time of their commission or detection.
As I’ve written here before, with decriminalisation a prostitute in NZ was able to succeed in having a client convicted of a crime, through the courts, because he had removed a condom without her knowledge during sexual intercourse.
Decriminalisation offers anyone engaged in prostitution the protection of the law as everyone else experiences it, and the building block for de-stigmatising the work. As Sue Bradford said in her address to the NZ parliament, we have to act now to protect women, not from some abstract theory, not wait until some distant utopia *might* arrive in which no woman chooses prostitution. We are dealing with the reality of women’s lives now.
p.s. have noted your moderation comments to be abided by. No problem.
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Violet says:
Cicely, I can see how the decriminalization argument makes sense in certain contexts, but I’m having a very hard time squaring that with the reality of prostitution in Thailand. We’re talking about slavery. We’re talking about an entrenched cultural ethic that female humans are chattel. I cannot wrap my mind around treating that like any other commerce and leaving it open to free market forces. Kidnapping little girls and raping them? It seems to me that the most likely result of legitimating prostitution in Thailand is that the government will get a cut via tax revenues and then there will be even less incentive than there is now for them to enforce the existing laws against kidnapping, rape, slavery — all the things that go into sustaining the Thai sex industry.
Not to be emotional, but when I think of the young girls who are being “broken in” as we speak in the raping rooms of the Bangkok brothels, I think we need to make it stop. Of course I know that you want to make it stop, too. So I’m guessing you think the plan should be decriminalization PLUS some kind of program to stop the kidnapping, rape, and slavery. But is that feasible? Effectively this would mean saying: “okay, you can have brothels, as long as you don’t carry on this business in any of the ways that you’ve been carrying it on for decades. But we’re not going to have any kind of government oversight to make sure that you are in fact completely overhauling your entire industry.” The likelihood of this succeeding strikes me as small.
I still don’t have a solution myself to offer; I’m just thinking this through.
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cicely says:
So I’m guessing you think the plan should be decriminalization PLUS some kind of program to stop the kidnapping, rape, and slavery. But is that feasible?
Yes, that would be the idea. Is whatever is being done in Thailand right now feasible as a solution? Apparently they’ve tried legalisation, straight out criminalisation and now they’re considering going back to legalisation again. Those cruel traditions are clearly entrenched and will take time to eliminate, but if prostitution was decriminalised the police focus and people power could shift to associated crimes like kidnapping, rape and slavery. Also, prostitutes would have the protection of the law, in full, against abuses if they find themselves in a position to talk to someone - anyone - and let them know what’s going on. They would not be in the position you rightly railed about of being criminalised themselves on top of everything else they’ve suffered.
Why not try something that hasn’t been tried before, since nothing else has worked? With regard to the idea that policing would be half-assed so the government could collect a heap of taxes from the cruel and brutal exploitation of many of it’s female population I hardly know what to say. If things are or could be that bad, that corrupt, where is there any hope at all for the women of Thailand? -
Violet says:
I found this online: Anti-Trafficking Law in Asia, Expert Meeting November 25-27, 2003, Tokyo, Japan: Asian Women’s Fund
It includes a few very interesting papers presented by Thai government officials and consultants.
They generally talk about “decriminalization” as applying to sex workers, which is something I agree with. The trend in Thai law has already been to remove criminal penalties from prostitutes themselves for the act of prostitution, though certain acts (public soliciting, etc.) are still treated as crimes. Meanwhile, criminal penalties have been significantly stepped up and enforcement efforts focused on the traffickers and pimps.
Reading through the papers, it’s clear that everyone over there understands the need to crack down on the trafficking. The paper by Uthaiwan Jamsutee offers the following list of Things To Do:
11.1 Cooperation between Authorities of the Countries in the Mekong Region
It is unthinkable to minimize the problem of cross-border trafficking without international cooperation. This may be easy to say but in practice it is very difficult due to many hindrances and two most difficult hindrances are the differences in domestic law and legal system. Thus, to conclude a multilateral agreement is next to impossible. The realistic approach, however, is that Thailand negotiate with each neighboring country. On May 31, 2003, we conclude the memorandum of understanding between the Government of Cambodia and the Government of Thailand on Eliminating the trafficking of Children and Women and assisting victim of trafficking.
11.2 The need to Increase Awareness in All Levels
Gender discrimination is another hidden cause that makes women and girls more vulnerable for being easily abused. Girls are raised differently from boys. The traditional value is that boys have to receive as much education as they can, or as their parents can afford while education for girls is not very necessary. Moreover, when the parents have limited resources, girls have to sacrifice so that boys can receive education. A son can pay back the gratitude to their parents by being ordained to be a monk for a period of three months while a daughter has to pay back in other ways including working in commercial sex business and contributes the hard earned money for the survival or comfort of her parents and her siblings.
In order to increase the efforts of government, officials and people, the first and most important thing is to raise their awareness in order to understand the serious consequences of the child exploitation. Without increased awareness, these problems will not be given priority and support from government, law enforcement officials and people. Many governments still refuse to recognize the problems or denied that the problems are not as serious as being reported. People often turn a blind eye on the problems because they do not want to know about this issue and because they think it is not very damaging. Many do not realize how much trauma the victims have to endure. Many shocking stories are not publicized to the public. A lot of campaigns have to be launched to the public and to the family of the potential victims of trafficking. The potential victims and their families should be informed of the suffer of those who were lured, deceived or forced to be prostitutes. This information should be publicized for the public to know how much damages the sexual exploitation can cause.
Whenever the awareness is high the public will support the fight against trafficking. Politicians will be forced to make this problem their priority and law enforcement officials then cannot sit back but they have to concentrate in prevention and suppression of the trafficking.
11.3 Clear Policy and Strong Political Will of Policy Makers
To enforce measures and laws against trafficking in women, a strong policy of the government in that country is necessary because the government can direct and allocate resources to fight against trafficking. It also can emphasize and prioritize the problems of traffic in women so that law enforcement officers know exactly what the government wanted them to do.
Strong political will to solve sex tourism will result in the government’s social projects to improve the quality of lives of children and women. I.e. education, occupational training programs, job placement, physical and mental rehabilitation programs, etc.
11.4 New Laws Needed
The existing law is not up date enough to fight this crime. Law of each country may have severe penalties but the context may not cover all the changing situations. Take the present Act on Women and girls Trafficking of Thailand as an example, the law does not cover trafficking in boys which is an increasing phenomenon. That is the reason why the existing trafficking law was enacted in 1997. Many countries do not have a Money Laundering law which is another effective tool to fight organized crime mobsters who manage trafficking. Many countries do not have treaties and domestic laws which authorize the governments to cooperate with other countries in extradition and mutual legal assistance. The lack of all necessary laws and cooperation make Mekong region the heaven of pedophiles. More new and effective laws needed to be enacted to close the loopholes of the laws and to get rid of the sex tourists.
11.5 Judicial System Adjustment
Even if a perpetrator is arrested within Thailand and there is no need for cooperation from another state, it does not guarantee that the prosecution will be successful. The reason is because of the long and complicated process of the judicial system which is easily abused by the defendant.
Therefore, it is necessary to create a friendly procedure designed especially for giving due protection to a victim of trafficking or sexual abuse and at the same time give due protection to the defendant’s rights. The difficulties are how to balance between these two protections. The most important part in the judicial process problem is the attitude of people in the criminal justice administration. If they do not realize the plights of the victim and have no sympathetic attitude towards her, the victim will be very much suffered by the judicial process which has the duty to protect her. Thus, all parties in the judicial process, i.e. judges, prosecutors and police, assigned to handle these types of cases, should receive special training in this issue.
12. Conclusion
Trafficking is a serious and dangerous crime to women and children, in particular, from the Mekong region. It is quite certain from many studies that many organized criminal rings are behind domestic and cross border traffic in women. Corruption, kick back and “tea money”, which are widespread in the region, make suppression weak with lax law enforcement. The sovereignty concept and lack of cooperation among countries make suppression of cross border trafficking more difficult. Therefore, it is necessary to seriously study this problem and try to get all the governments in the Mekong region. NGOs and international agencies to work systematically together against the traffic in women. In addition, many laws have to be enacted or amended in the right direction to give effective tools for officials. Social plans of actions are also needed to reduce the root causes of the problem. With all the measures taken together in a concert effort, then there is hope to eradicate the traffic in women from the Mekong region.
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Violet says:
If things are or could be that bad, that corrupt, where is there any hope at all for the women of Thailand?
cicely, I don’t have the citation in front of me, but at one point the Thai government was happily promoting its sex tourism with the slogan that the only fruit of Thailand more delicious than [insert fruit name I've forgotten] was its young women.
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belledame222 says:
I’m with cicely here.
Violet, I get your point, and I don’t have an immediate solution either–but it does seem to me that it’s at least *possible* that it might in fact be easier, or at least no less hard, to focus on illegal trafficking and abuse without needing to conflate it with sexual transactions for money, pure and simple.
I mean, look, human trafficking and exploitation is a real problem, and it’s not likely to just go away real soon; but is it really necessary to make it about the sex, per se?
For example, consider this article from 2003, linked to at Jay Sennet (scroll down to “Dying to Bring You The Bounty of Summer”)
http://www.jaysennett.com/blog/
(full article here:
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~tjzander/slavery.pdf)
“Factors combine to create, in South Florida, what a Justice Department official calls “ground zero for modern slavery.” The area has seen six cases of involuntary servitude successfully prosecuted in the past six years. Describing local migrant-contractor power dynamics, Michael Baron, an agent with the U.S. Border Patrol who knows Florida well, told me, “Most of the time, these workers are housed miles from civilization, with no telephones or cars. They’re controllable. There’s no escape. If you do escape, what are you gonna do? Run seventeen miles to the nearest town, when you don’t even know where it is? And, if you have a brother or a cousin in the group, are you gonna leave them behind? You gonna escape with seventeen people? You’ll make tracks like a herd of elephants. Whoever’s got you, they’ll find you. And heaven help you when they do…”
You notice that female sexual slavery (indentured servitude, if one prefers) is included in this set-up; but, it’s not the *only* thing that’s happening; they’re a sop to the male workers, who aer the real source of profit here. And what’s that “product?” Why, tomatoes, citrus fruits, and other produce that most of us put on the table every day. Arguably a far greater source of profit to the exploiters than even the most lucrative sex ring, I’d bet.
So, but: is the problem in picking tomatoes or citrus fruits for money? or farming? or migrant labor? If so, how to get around it? Is the problem in the product? Or is the problem in the exploitation itself? Now what?
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belledame222 says:
! wrote that before seeing Violet’s quote of “the only fruit…”
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Violet says:
I mean, look, human trafficking and exploitation is a real problem, and it’s not likely to just go away real soon; but is it really necessary to make it about the sex, per se?
My answer would be that with female sexual slavery, it’s already about the sex. In order to combat a problem we have to understand it. If we want to work on the problem of migrant farm workers, we need to understand that situation: the agriculture industry, the wage system, the profit margin of the growers, supply and demand for fruit, supply and demand for labor, the situation of the laborers, the illegal immigration issues, the social issues, etc., etc. We could say, let’s not make this about the fruit, let’s just focus on the general issue of exploitation, but while that sort of high-level thinking has its place, it will probably not help us develop a nuanced understanding of the particular issues in farm migrant labor or come up with a specific action plan.
With sex trafficking it’s absolutely true that there are big-picture elements that are common to many types of exploitation. But the specifics of the situation require that we understand the dynamics of the sex trade, the demand, the gender issues, etc., etc.
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cicely says:
That information you posted looks promising, Violet. I like the idea of a public campaign so families know exactly what’s likely to be happening to their girls, and also that it would be seen by the sex tourists themselves so they have what they could be involved in right in their faces. Those who have the ‘don’t ask because I don’t care how this girl or woman got here, as long as she’s young and/or very cheap’ mentality.
As to the cumbersome judicial system in Thailand - as I said earlier in this thread I think - Australia has actually started to charge and try men in Australia for sexual exploitation crimes committed abroad. That takes care of the system problem in Thailand, and it may also be a greater deterrent for offenders to know they’ll be tried and convicted in their home country, where people know them, and with all the attendant publicity.
Yeah, the Thai government advertising of its young girls does look - and is/was? - very bad. Hopefully they’ve moved beyond that sort of thing by now.
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belledame222 says:
Definitely agree with that wrt: there’s more to learn and consider.
I guess what I’m trying to say is: among all those factors is the cultural influence(s) that says that any act deemed as sexual is something apart, different, *special,* that must not be sold, ever, under any circumstances, in any context, because xyz.
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belledame222 says:
slip, was responding to Violet
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Sam says:
I’m going to skip to cicely’s points after pointing out the most striking fact about NYU professor Don Kulick’s anti-Swedish model essay is that it doesn’t list resources. I’ve already used verifiable research— backed with openly checkable methodology, testimonial quotes, and third party newspaper articles —to disprove the same unfounded conjectures echoed by Petra Ostergen about the Swedish model’s supposed failures.
Just as I have never seen research that shows a majority of prostitutes want to keep prostituting, so have I never seen research that shows the disastrous failure of Sweden’s decriminalization model. As the title gives away and the skewed text insides confirms, this research report gathering data from other reports comparing Sweden and the Netherlands was written from a heavily pro-sex work view and still it has to admit such things as “The Netherlands has around twice as many inhabitants as Sweden. The scale of prostitution is about ten times of Sweden.”
I’ve also already gone over how decriminalization in New Zealand changes nothing because there are already laws against rape, kidnapping and murder so simply amending to those laws, “…that goes for sex workers too” is no solution. Likewise, stripping is legal in the USA but that doesn’t deter enormous amounts of violence inside strip clubs and spilling into the immediate environs. The US Supreme Court and municipalities in several states, including Nevada, have successfully maintained the right to zone SOBs (sexually oriented businesses) because where they go sex-based crimes like prostitution and assaults increase and consequently property values in close proximity go down. When SOBs group in clusters an area, usually where minorities and poor people who can’t fight them away like wealthier NIMBYs do, that neighborhood gets a reputation and men come from miles away, men without familial ties or concern for the poor neighborhoods they troll for cheap hookers and drugs.
These are legal establishments ostensibly under the rule of law now and it has not made a difference, and neither has New Zealand except since legitimization street prostitution has quadrupled, there are 40% more prostitutes, and pimps caught selling men the ability to rape troubled children are only given community service. You know where my sources for those facts can be found on this blog
Some feminists talk about the danger of ‘normalising’ the commidification of women’s bodies if prostitution is de-criminalised. Is it better to continue with the ‘normal’ society view of prostitutes we’ve all grown up with?
New Zealand-type decriminalization further entrenches the “normal” view of prostitutes we’ve all grown up with, the “normality” of the happy, street-smart hooker doing it for herself and men’s need and right to command sex any time they want it. Neither of these two social archetypes are true about women and men, and New Zealand institutionalizing and promoting them only strengthens the seeming rightness of these damaging gender stereotypes. I can pull up some quotes from tricks if you want more proof that familiarity with prostitutes and a sense of entitlement to sex on demand doesn’t lessen men’s contempt and violence towards prostitutes, as if men having had access to all the whores they could afford since recorded history isn’t proof enough that allowing men unlimited sexual use of women’s bodies doesn’t diminish their assaults on prostitued women.
So long as there is mega-money to be made selling women’s bodies, there will be men, and increasingly women, becoming pimps and traffickers. My support for the Swedish model isn’t based on some utopian ideal or far-out theory, it is based on the simple economic rules of demand and supply. This is a grounded and realistic approach where New Zealand’s anti-stigma campaign relies on willful ignorance, choosing to ignore the gendered social circumstances that cause prostitutes to become prostitutes in the first place while maintaining a forced blindness as to why prostitutes get murdered a lot more than fast food employees and raped a lot more than secretaries.
Yeah, the Thai government advertising of its young girls does look - and is/was? - very bad. Hopefully they’ve moved beyond that sort of thing by now.
So long as there is a huge profit motive in sexual slavery, why would they? They are desperately poor, just the like prostitutes you say men should be allowed to “help” out of poverty one blowjob at a time, so if it’s ideologically all right for prostitution to hypothetically alleviate poverty for women then why not for poor countries as well?
I say hypothetically alleviate because prostitution does not make prostituted women rich. Prostitutes have a tremendous amount in common with battered wives, and one of those commonalities is that if and when they finally run from their pimps they often have little more than the clothes on their back. The first day I volunteered at a prostitution transition center there was a woman there who had run from her pimp, her trembling hands shaking the soda can she was holding as the social worker tried to dig up some clothes since hers were badly soiled.
On to Thailand.
No surprise I think reducing men’s demand and therefore the monetary incentive for prostitution is the surest way to reduce sexual slavery, but where to start?
Here’s a short, short list to be mixed and matched in any number of ways; I could go into further detail on any item.
- International boycott of Thailand until the systematic mass rape-for-profit situation is addressed seriously. Indigenous women forced into prostitution in disproportionately large numbers is a form of genocidal rape.
- UN peacekeeping forces, preferably mostly female-led, called in to hold an unresponsive government and corrupt police force to task.
- Demand-source countries are the wealthiest in the world, so laws and enforcement prosecuting British, American, French, Japanese, etc. prostitution-touring men in their countries with their greater financial ability and responsibility for its citizens.
- Honest sexual education and sexual health information made free for all and incorporated into age-appropriate basic education.
- For women, updating rape and sexual assault laws into an acceptable framework rooted in human rights declarations like CEDAW (Convention for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.)
- For women, microcredit programs based on the very successful lending programs of the Grameen Bank of Bangladesh. I used to do volunteer lobbying in NY and DC for microcredit funding and think it is nothing short of miraculous in its ability to change the lives of the world’s poorest women.
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Violet says:
I suspect we should do a separate thread on New Zealand in this series, since that is such an interesting test case.
For Thailand, I particularly like Sam’s second bullet item: UN peacekeeping forces, preferably mostly female-led, called in to hold an unresponsive government and corrupt police force to task.
Actually Sam’s list brings up a meta question — the same question that was in my mind as I was reading that conference report: how do we make the things on the list start happening? Here are action plans, but is there a way to get the action going?
We need more women leaders, on the national and international levels. We need POWER.
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cicely says:
belledame - comment 8 on your last objectification post on your blog - which has ‘anonymous’ above it - is me, in case you don’t realise. I bulleted ‘other’ and typed my name but it didn’t work as it did last night, for some reason. Now I keep getting ‘this page is unavailable’. Bugger.
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Sam says:
You deleted a few words from the beginning of my post, Violet. If I am to be forbidden from responding as I will here then I will do so elsewhere.
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Violet says:
Oh, Sam, there is an email to you about that which I sent a few minutes ago. I explained and apologized.
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will says:
Sam:
The Man is trying to keep you down.
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Violet says:
No, I made a mistake, which I was writing to her about at the same time she was posting.
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cicely says:
Sam - we keep getting stuck on this thing about most prostitutes wanting to get out, etc, as if there isn’t any desire on the part of prostitutes all around the world for decriminalisation. Did you read the list of organisations in New Zealand that supported the law reform? It included Women’s Refuge and the independent Wellington Rape Crisis centre along with the Prostitutes Collective and other groups, including the Salvation Army, who work closely with prostitutes. Don’t these peoples views, women who are there, make any impact on you? How do you account for them? It’s a serious question.
“The Netherlands has around twice as many inhabitants as Sweden. The scale of prostitution is about ten times of Sweden.”
Frankly, if the eradification of prostitution isn’t the goal this isn’t alarming at all. The conditions prostitutes work under in the Netherlands, or anywhere, would be my concern. And whether or not they chose the work (over other available options) or under what circumstances they entered prostitution.
These are legal establishments ostensibly under the rule of law now and it has not made a difference, and neither has New Zealand except since legitimization street prostitution has quadrupled, there are 40% more prostitutes,
Unfortunately I didn’t save it but I was at a site last night that disputed this 40% figure. Fuck figures, let’s stick to philosophies, or actual people, I’m tempted to say - because we could go on forever throwing numbers at each other and who really knows what to believe if we’re just pushing our own barrows?
It’s very late (or early?) here now, and I must away to my bed.
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Violet says:
It seems we are destined to debate New Zealand, but not on this thread. I will start a new post tomorrow, part 2 of the prostitution series, on New Zealand. I will probably draw in from Sam’s comments here and in other threads and from Cicely’s comments to get us started (I know very little about the NZ situation myself).
This thread will of course remain alive for people to continue discussing Thailand.
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cicely says:
Violet - I was wondering if it might be an idea to have a thread discussing a direct comparison between the NZ and Swedish models. The address I’m posting here is a comparison. The bias is towards the NZ model, the info being provided by a group in Canada which wants to follow that example. The report on the impact of the Swedish model on prostitutes quoted does have claims to being neutral though as it was provided by the Swedish Ministry of Justice and the Police.
http://www.aidslaw.ca/Maincont.....w-no09.pdf
(Copy and paste into address bar)
Of course it’s entirely up to you how you want to go about this. I’m sure we’ll get to this comparison one way or another anyway.
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Sam says:
We’ve already done the comparison alluded to in the report you’ve linked in the Prostitute = Pizza thread. If there’s something new you want to bring to the discussion I’m all ears, but simply repeating the same specious, foundation-less speculations like how the Swedish law has created a scourge of women blackmailing would-be tricks by pretending to be prostitutes is unproductive.
It is simply not true that there are competing statistics when it comes to prostitution’s effects and the stated wishes of prostituting women, men and transgendereds. Hundreds of studies done over decades reveal the same thing over and over again and I have asked time and again for any research to the contrary and so far none has been brought to my attention. I have offered to pay anyone $100 for a piece of research that shows a majority of prostitutes want help staying in prostitution and no one has attempted to claim the money.
If the wealthy pimps, pornographers and governments who profit from prostitution had solid information proving that legitimizing getting fucked as a job has been beneficial for women and communities, why wouldn’t they use the global media they own (TimeWarnerAol is the world’s largest porn distributor) to spread that information across the Earth? When it is provable that child prostitution, illegal street and brothel prostitution, gang activity, and trafficking for sexual slavery reliably increase wherever sex work is legitimized and men’s right-to-sex encouraged, it’s understandable why no headline news about the success of solidifying women’s reproductive organs as publicly-available rental properties regulated by business law has yet been seen.
The excuses for why countering evidence can’t be found are numerous. I’ve been told that every study ever done on prostitution is wrong because “I have friends who like being sex workers.” I’ve been told it’s easier to find and speak with rape victims, drug addicts and trafficked teens than unraped, healthy, stable adult sex workers. I’ve been told pornographers just don’t have as much money as “academic feminists” to conduct studies determining the general welfare of the prostitutes they use.
Lots of excuses and absurd rationalizations but curiously lacking fact-based data.
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belledame222 says:
One doesn’t have to have a “majority” of women who prefer being sex workers in order to believe that it is *possible* to make a satisfying career out of it; one only needs one concrete example, and I do know a number of those women (and men), yes.
I don’t know anyone who’s saying that “every study on prostitution is wrong” because of their friends. Not here, at least. I have not seen this. What *I* as saying, at least, is that if you’re going to value womens’ subjective experiences, then you really need to also factor in the ones that don’t happen to agree with yours.
And your language is kind of telling, I think: “getting fucked as a job.”
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belledame222 says:
(cicely, I got it, no problem. blogger is giving me/us all I think a serious ass cramp lately).
>Actually Sam’s list brings up a meta question — the same question that was in my mind as I was reading that conference report: how do we make the things on the list start happening? Here are action plans, but is there a way to get the action going?
We need more women leaders, on the national and international levels. We need POWER.>
Word.
Not to unduly burden you, Violet, but at some point would you also consider a separate thread on attitudes about sexuality in general? (particularly the very *idea,* considered separately from the gritty reality, of having sex for money). It’d be interesting to me to see where everyone’s coming from, here.
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belledame222 says:
Btw, I’m finding this piece interesting. am now uneasily aware that I pitted “European” (and New Zealand, and American) prostitution against how it might work in Thailand; as though indeed Thailand *must* be something apart, special.
http://www.walnet.org/csis/pap.....-ouch.html
the truth is, I am feeling a bit uneasy, because, I realize, besides not being up to snuff on the ins and outs of sexual trafficking and prostitution in Thailand, I really know fuck-all about the overall context of Thai culture and government. hell, for that matter I know very little about that of Sweden or New Zealand.
but I have been basing much of my thinking about how sex work might or might not (does and doesn’t) work in the U.S., at least, bsed on what I do know of U.S. history wrt cultural notions of sex and sex work, womens’ rights and feminisms, laws, labor, cultural mores, and so on. which, I could still know a lot more, but at least I sort of feel like I have an idea of what I’m talking about.
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belledame222 says:
(and I am reading the links you provided up at the top, Violet).
anyway this, from the above-cited article, is pretty much what I was getting at:
Barry sees prostitution as the ultimate expression of male dominance.
My study of sex as power… inevitably, continually, unrelentingly returns me to prostitution. …one cannot mobilize against a class condition of oppression unless one knows its fullest dimensions. Thus my work has been to study and expose sexual power in its most severe, global, institutionalized, and crystallized forms… Prostitution — the cornerstone of all sexual exploitation (1995: 9).
“The harms of prostitution are expressed in highly graphic terms which ironically echo traditional, religious/patriarchal moralizing against prostitutes. Hoigard and Finstad, (1992) whose work is held up as exemplary by Barry, refer to sex workers’ vaginas as ‘garbage can[s] for hordes of anonymous men’s ejaculations’ (quoted in Chapkis 1997: 51). Barry herself says that prostitutes become ‘interchangeable’ with plastic blow-up sex dolls ‘complete with orifices for penetration and ejaculation’ (1995: 35). A member of CATW recently characterized prostitutes as ‘empty holes surrounded by flesh, waiting for a masculine deposit of sperm.’ Seen in this way, prostitutes ‘pain’ becomes the foundation of the identity ‘woman’. ‘Prostitution makes all women vulnerable, exposed to danger, open to attack. To be vulnerable is, by definition, to be “able to be hurt or wounded or injured”‘ (Barry 1995: 317). ‘Woman’ thus becomes an ‘identity’ solely constituted through the ‘injury’ of male sexual power; as the most ‘injured’, the prostitute is most fully identified as ‘woman’.
I am taking prostitution as the model, the most extreme and most crystallized form of all sexual exploitation. Sexual exploitation is a political condition, the foundation of women’s subordination and the base from which discrimination against women is constructed and enacted (1995: 11).
Kathleen Barry and CATW claim to base their analysis on the ‘true’ experiences of prostitutes. In Barry’s theory, sex in prostitution ‘reduces women to a body’ and is therefore necessarily harmful, whether there is consent or not (1995: 23). Consequently, prostitutes’ ‘true’ stories of pain and injury serve both to demonstrate the rightness of her theory and are claimed as the empirical basis for that theory. The testimonies of prostitutes thus assume the status of absolute truth. However, only certain versions of prostitutes’ experience are considered ‘true’. Barry constructs the ‘injury’ of sex in prostitution in a circular manner. Prostitution is considered always injurious because the sex in it is dehumanizing. However, the sex takes on this dehumanizing character because it takes place within prostitution. In this neat, sealed construction, there is no place for the experiences of sex workers who claim their work is not harmful or alienating. For Barry and CATW, the notion of a prostitute who is unharmed by her experience is an ontological impossibility: that which cannot be.”
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belledame222 says:
99: and, I should add, acquaintance with actual sex workers, former and current.
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belledame222 says:
(last post for a bit, I swear–back on topic)
like this, from the Siamweb link:
http://www.siamweb.org/content.....hp#history>”Customers may be discouraged from patronizing underage prostitutes because of the penalties stipulated by the bill. But the legal sanctions will not stop many Thai men from visiting a brothel or an entertainment place which also offers sexual services so long as this society believes that it is not morally or socially wrong, but something very normal, for Thai men to have a little extra-marital sex with prostitutes from time to time.” >
that, and police corruption. But my question is: what, as someone who isn’t Thai, has never even been to Thailand, does one do to address this? For that matter, I guess: just in terms of talking about it, I’d want to know a little more about where those particular social beliefs came from. It’s not enough (for me) to say “the patriarchy,” because clearly it takes different forms in different cultures. Why is the belief that it’s “normal” more prevalent (or at least more openly so) in Thailand than it might be somewhere else? or is it?
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belledame222 says:
(I lied. last one! really!)
…this is the sort of POV I’m interested in:
http://www.bpf.org/tsangha/ouyporn.html
>Feminism and Buddhism
A Reflection through Personal Life & Working Experience
Ouyporn Khuankaew
Thai Buddhism and PatriarchyIn my eyes, Buddhism in Thailand has been very patriarchal, institutionalized, and corrupted. The control by the state, the failure of rural development, modernization and consumerism have all contributed to the current state of Thai Buddhism. But one thing that has never been mentioned, even by progressive monks, Buddhist male scholars or activists, is patriarchy within Buddhism itself…
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cicely says:
The excuses for why countering evidence can’t be found are numerous. I’ve been told that every study ever done on prostitution is wrong because “I have friends who like being sex workers.”
Sam - No-one is suggesting that the majority of prostitutes in the world wish to remain so. I have myself repeatedly agreed with the opposite. This doesn’t alter the fact that prostitute collectives in many countries including England, Canada and Norway, to name a few, see decriminalisation of prostitution as the best way to address the health and safety and stigmatisation issues for all prostitutes who are working in the industry in these countries at any time for any reason. Whether this would be the case in Thailand might indeed need more research, but I am generally in favour of it anywhere to begin with. i.e. that would be my starting position and only factors unique to a situation which could be shown very likely to make decriminalisation produce a worse than current result for prostitutes (who would need to agree) could change my mind.
I must say that I am also struck by the language used by anti- prostitution feminists to describe prostitutes and their work. Calling them ‘fuckholes’ and ‘wet holes’ and the like, hiding behind the silent guise of ’saying what men really think’, even maybe believing that’s what they’re doing. It reads as objectification of these women to me (and also to them, I feel sure) whatever the source. This reading is in the context that there is definitely a general refusal to allow the subjectivity and agency of women involved in prostitution who *do* choose it, or who argue for decriminalisation from within the industry. In short, who don’t agree with the feminist anti-porn position.
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cicely says:
That was meant to be - anti-prostitution - position - obviously ;)
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Violet says:
Calling them ‘fuckholes’ and ‘wet holes’ and the like, hiding behind the silent guise of ’saying what men really think’, even maybe believing that’s what they’re doing. It reads as objectification of these women to me (and also to them, I feel sure) whatever the source.
I think the goal of this language is to call it like it is, rather than use euphemisms that disguise the nature of the activity. There are those who would refer to Thai sex slaves as “independent businesswomen providing a service,” which does nothing but conceal the fact that these are slaves being raped, often with great brutality. They’re not independent, they’re not businesswomen, and they’re not providing a “service” unless we expand service to include being forcibly raped.
I also think that this language serves to remind us of how many johns really do see their activity: Sam has noted here (and elsewhere) the surveys where johns exult over the powerlessness of the prostitutes. And the extraordinary level of violence against prostitutes world-wide that occurs in the course of their “work” is in itself evidence that the johns who are raping and beating them regard them as objects to be used.
As for the reaction of the prostitutes themselves to this language, I think that varies. Of course there are some who would object to this and see their jobs very differently, but there are others who themselves are adamant that being a prostitute means being treated like meat. As one said (paraphrasing): “When you work at McDonald’s, you’re not the meat. When you’re a prostitute, you ARE the meat.”
The main problem with these discussions which I’m trying to avoid here is arguing from different situations. There is not much in common between a businesswoman like Heidi Fleiss, who thinks prostitution is wonderful, and a slave girl from the northern Thailand hill tribes who is tied to the bed and raped with an iron bar by a customer who’s paid her owner for the privilege, you know?
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Infidel says:
Then a majority of turned tricks belong in rape statistics. Seriously- and the one in five stat becomes what? ONE IN THREE??!! ..and the number of unreported rapes skyrockets. And the sick fucks stuffing fuckholes are living in a sea of stinking humanity pushing another down so they can get above the muck and breath superiority, only as they push they become part of the soup and they can’t see getting out of the bowl. Honestly what are parents of a sold daughter in Thailand going to do with the $800 dollars or whatever. Are they given a plane ticket, house in American Suburbia, a Dunkin Donuts Store of their own, a car and twelve thousand dollars walking money…their daughter? What the fuck!
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belledame222 says:
Yes, but I’ve yet to see any acknowledgement from the pro-criminalization faction (even using the Swedish model, criminalizing the johns) that there *is* any real difference; the overall impression I get from Sam’s posts, at leasts, is of a desperate, dangerous, disgusting business, *always*, where neither the johns nor the prostitutes–ever–get to be human. Any of them. At all. In any context. Which, if that’s the case, then well of course the first priority is to shut it down, stop it, stop it!!
And I agree with cicely; it feels rather disingenuous to be using that sort of language from a feminist perspective. There must be a happy medium between cutesy euphemism and language that is dehumanizing (not just graphic, dehumanizing) in its own right. If a sex worker herself wants to talk about her experience in the way you cited–i.e. the McDonald’s thing–that’s one thing. As it’s being used by the anti-”pornstitution” agitators, honestly, it gives me the impression that something else is maybe going on. There’s just a strange sort of charge to the whole thing, the same sort of feeling I get when reading I don’t know the Starr report. Or perhaps more fairly, an anti-abortionist’s screed. I mean, I’m sure that the people who are writing such words feel very very strongly about the whole thing, very passionately, yes.
I’d love to hear from someone who’s actually working in the sex industry at this juncture, honestly, much less the Thai sex industry. I have the uncomfortable feeling that the “debate” without the actual voices of the women (and men) whom the laws would most directly affect is kind of objectifying in its own right.
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cicely says:
There are those who would refer to Thai sex slaves as “independent businesswomen providing a service,”
Seriously? Who? Certainly not me or anyone I know. They’d have to be people defending sex slavery rather than rights for prostitutes wouldn’t they?
I also think that this language serves to remind us of how many johns really do see their activity: Sam has noted here (and elsewhere) the surveys where johns exult over the powerlessness of the prostitutes.
I won’t say this isn’t common, and probably this is another conversation, but a couple of books have been written, untranslated as yet apparently, by a Dane and a Swede, about male consumers attitudes to prostitutes. They are based on surveys. Funnily enough, the clients don’t speak with one voice any more than prostitutes do and their comments about their motives don’t always or even most often reflect feelings or thoughts of themselves as power-wielding subject over powerless object. They are at the very least open to interpretation.
The main problem with these discussions which I’m trying to avoid here is arguing from different situations. There is not much in common between a businesswoman like Heidi Fleiss, who thinks prostitution is wonderful, and a slave girl from the northern Thailand hill tribes who is tied to the bed and raped with an iron bar by a customer who’s paid her owner for the privilege, you know?
I see the problem here, but my question would be, ‘who is most guilty of lumping everything together - feminists wanting to ally with prostitutes in their quest for human and civil rights, or anti-prostitution feminists?
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belledame222 says:
And Violet–why put scare quotes around “work?” You don’t think it’s work? I certainly think it’s work.
By the way–how many of the world’s garment industry workers d’you suppose want to remain in their jobs? Migrant workers? Again: does the abuse suffered by people in such jobs imply that the *nature* of the work is the problem, as opposed to the nature of the exploiters and the laws and culture which lets them get away with that level of exploitation?
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belledame222 says:
As per johns exulting over the prostitutes–again, I dunno about far-off, exotic Thailand, but while I know that that has been the experience of some sex workers (former) in the U.S., I also know other sex workers who clearly don’t find that to be the case.
I mean, I think there’s enough abusive shit going on without further sensalization. And yes, I am sorry, but the passive/universalizing voice here *is* a problem.
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cicely says:
I’d love to hear from someone who’s actually working in the sex industry at this juncture, honestly, much less the Thai sex industry. I have the uncomfortable feeling that the “debate” without the actual voices of the women (and men) whom the laws would most directly affect is kind of objectifying in its own right.
We cross-posted, belledame.
In relation to the above,I agree, and it would be great to hear from active participants in the industry. I’m not holding my breath though. If some people (outsiders) are afraid of taking part in these conversations because *they’re* likely to be ’slimed’, as you put it, Violet, imagine how participants might feel.
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Violet says:
cicely, I wasn’t ascribing those euphemisms to you. But I’ve seen just that sort of commentary from people who simply don’t know or don’t want to know the ugly reality.
I think the reason anti-prostitution feminists keep trying to bring the conversation back round to the violence and exploitation of the majority is that they feel like the pro-prostitution advocates are at risk of ignoring this in pursuit of an idealized image of the Happy Hooker — which describes a few prostitutes in the world, of course, but not the majority.
That’s why I’d hoped to avoid that by narrowing down to specific situations. If we’re talking about prostitution in Thailand, it doesn’t make sense to argue that Heidi Fleiss’s hookers in L.A. were happy and making a lot of money (to use an extreme sort of example). By the same token, if we do a thread on Heidi Fleiss, then it won’t make sense to argue against that kind of brothel by bringing in references to slaves.
By the way, we have had one person on this blog who’s been intimately involved in the sex industry tell us what it’s like, and if you recall she believes it is profoundly dehumanizing.
As for me, I acknowledge that some prostitutes are apparently happy in their work, and in some situations (like your friends, Cicely) they are clearly independent women doing exactly what they want. I’ve also read here and there on blogs where former prostitutes speak up and say they did it to earn money in school or something, and while it was very difficult they don’t regret it, and so forth. So, yes, those situations exist.
It’s also true of course that not all johns are violent brutes; I said “many johns” — which is true and I’ll stand by it. The rate of violence in prostitution is extraordinary — the rate of rape, beatings, etc. It’s surely one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. What other job involves the routine possibility that your customer will rape or murder you? Where prostitution is legal it is standard for prostitutes to be advised on how to protect themselves from rape, murder, assault, etc., and the rate of violence that still occurs is phenomenal. So no, not all johns are violent by any means, but the amount of violence in prostitution overall is incredibly high. It’s such a striking correlation that I think it needs to be examined seriously to understand what the fuck, frankly, is going on. (belledame, I used scare quotes because I was referring to violence, and I don’t see being raped as work.)
I mean, I think there’s enough abusive shit going on without further sensalization.
You may read it as sensationalism, but I read it as a hard jolt of reality. It’s very easy in these discussions to kind of not really deal with what’s going on. It’s easy for everyone to do that. I don’t know how many discussions I’ve seen where people talk about the theory of sex as labor, and so theoretically the prostitute is just a low-paid worker, and theoretically there’s nothing wrong with it, etc., etc. And all this takes place without actually considering the real human suffering going on. The girl who was raped with the iron bar in Thailand — that isn’t sensationalism to me and it’s hardly titillating. It actually makes me sick to my stomach and close to tears. I don’t want to think about it — nobody does. That’s the problem. So the purpose of referring to it is to remind ourselves, “this is what we’re actually talking about — real human beings, really suffering.”
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Mandos says:
It occurs to me that the conundrum being expressed in the subtext of this discussion is thus:
Are the institutions of society sufficiently capable to make the distinction between the majority of forced prostitutes and the minority of voluntary prostitutes so as to emancipate the former and allow the latter to continue as they please?
Because this whole debate over what combination of criminalization, decriminalization, and legalization is entirely about that.
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cicely says:
By the way, we have had one person on this blog who’s been intimately involved in the sex industry tell us what it’s like, and if you recall she believes it is profoundly dehumanizing.
I acknowledge this. What I’d still like to see is women and men writing who are participating now, from any perspective, although that would still be ‘I think/believe’ against ‘I think/believe’, I suppose. The thing is, all perspectives are valid for the people concerned. That is their experience. But they can’t speak for the experiences of others.
I think the reason anti-prostitution feminists keep trying to bring the conversation back round to the violence and exploitation of the majority is that they feel like the pro-prostitution advocates are at risk of ignoring this in pursuit of an idealized image of the
Happy Hooker — which describes a few prostitutes in the world, of course, but not the majority.I, on the other hand, think they know very well that we’re capable of not ignoring the violence and exploitation (we are feminists after all) but sometimes use it and the language themselves as a ‘ton of bricks’ with which to bury our dissension from the view that all prostitution, in any context, constitutes violence against women. We argue for health, safety and de-stigmatisation (at least I do). I think the use of the language contributes to stigmatisation, whatever the intent. I don’t expect it will stop, and neither would I attempt to control how other people express themselves, or assume to know the motivation of any individual. I just offer this one view of how it can be received. The nitty gritty, and the reason some anti-prostitution feminists feel it appropriate or ‘ok’ to use the language and someone like me or belledame doesn’t, is possibly that anti-prostitution feminists see ‘de-stigmatisation’ and ‘normalisation’, to which they are passionately opposed, as essentially the same thing. Maybe they are the same thing, when the work is chosen.(To discuss?) Chosen, not just for itself, but over other available options which are assessed by individual women to be less attractive overall. (16 hour underpaid days as a domestic servant for a family which utterly despises you and yours, for example.) Until the world can offer all women an array of work options good enough that prostitution would only be chosen by those who actually view it positively for itself, it makes no sense to take away an option that *is* frequently chosen above others, to keep any aspect of it criminalised (and therefore more dangerous than it need be) or to stigmatise those women who make that very conscious choice. In this sense, prostitution *is* work like any other work. At least, that is my arguement. Prostitution as such is a seperate issue from blatant atrocities committed against unwilling women and children, either in society in general or in the context of sexual slavery. Can or ‘will’ anti-prostitution feminists make this distinction?
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cicely says:
Mandos - I appear to have gone the long way around saying what you just said (and I didn’t read first because I was pasting a comment I wrote earlier and couldn’t post). How do you do that?
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cicely says:
Where prostitution is legal it is standard for prostitutes to be advised on how to protect themselves from rape, murder, assault, etc., and the rate of violence that still occurs is phenomenal. So no, not all johns are violent by any means, but the amount of violence in prostitution overall is incredibly high.
Yes, it is. Do you think the fact that all of society is complicit in regarding prostitutes as the embodiment of everything that is dirty and nasty about sex, and particularly about women’s sexuality ( along with the physical facts of their resulting isolation and vulnerabilty) has anything to do with it? It’s dangerous work in a misogynistic society, so who would dare suggest that women lack courage?
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Violet says:
Do you think the fact that all of society is complicit in regarding prostitutes as the embodiment of everything that is dirty and nasty about sex, and particularly about women’s sexuality ( along with the physical facts of their resulting isolation and vulnerabilty) has anything to do with it?
Yes, but what to do about that is the trick.
As you said, anti-prostitution feminists see ‘de-stigmatisation’ and ‘normalisation’, to which they are passionately opposed, as essentially the same thing.
Actually, speaking for myself — though I don’t suppose I qualify as a representative anti-prostitution feminist — it’s not that I think they’re the same thing. I just think that efforts to de-stigmatize prostitution may actually have the effect of normalizing it as it exists today. The stigma isn’t gone, it’s just that now people agree that it’s fine to treat women like crap.
I think that if sex work could truly be de-stigmatized — as opposed to just normalizing the current situation of prostitutes — then that could be revolutionary. Didn’t you wonder aloud once what it would be like if sex work was the most exalted work in the world? The question is whether we could ever get there, particularly by accepting and legalizing the current degraded situation of prostitutes. I tend to think that for such a phenomenal revolution to occur, the current paradigm needs to be swept away first.
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belledame222 says:
Yes, what to do about it. And you’re right, *just* decriminalizing doesn’t get rid of the stigma–but it seems to me it at least removes the extra headache of having to worry about arrest, blackmail, and so forth (which are stigmatizing in themselves).
the examples of legalization we’ve looked at so far seem to create extra headaches and compound the stigmatization (red light districts and so forth–oh, over *there*, *that’s* where the whores are, all neatly collected and cordoned off from “decent” society)
Anyway, back to Thailand specifically (and Violet, at the point where I wrote that I pretty much meant that when we’re talking about specific other countries it’s even harder when we don’t seem to have anyone who has direct experience over *there*, posting)–according to one of the articles you posted up top, recriminalization hasn’t provided any noticeable reduction in the actual prostitution or exploitation. So, if that’s so, the question is: now what? I mean, besides what seems to me an implication of “if recriminalization doesn’t make things better, is it possible that decriminalization wouldn’t make things worse?” What are some of the real, specific factors contributing to patriarchy, Thai-style?
I’ve started by googling “Thai feminism.” Right now I’m looking at an article that’s in pdf, so I can’t link to it directly–it should come up as fourth one down if you decide to do the same.
“Shifting sexuality among lowland Thai women,” by Marjorie Muecke.
(I can’t seem to copy and paste from pdf either)
Basically it’s talking about the work of a group of “fifteen [Thai] scholars, male and female,” that met twice a year at the Chulalongkorn University Social Science Research Institute in Bangkok, the goal of which being “to contest the dominant international discourse (both in media and research) that addresses Thai women and sexuality solely in terms of sex work…and to bring the voices of Thai researchers into the international discourses on Thai women and sexuality”
…with a particular focus on women in the lowlands.
Anyway, the premises they came up with sounds a lot like “sex positive” conclusions I’m more familiar with from the States:
“First was the recognition that sexuality is normal and healthy, so the scholarship about it in Thai society needs to move beyond reductionistic definitions that view women’s sexuality only as a health risk for STD’s, particularly HIV/AIDS. Second, it is important to recognize that sexuality involves feelings, desires, imaginings, as well as behavior, and is not limited to sexual orientation. Third, principles of human rights include a woman’s right to enjoy her sexuality. Fourth, the sexuality of an individual and a group change over time, by age, and vary by circumstances. Therefore, scholarship should address women in a variety of situations…”
It goes on to pin down what’s been disquieting me about the focus on Thailand in particular:
“…the international literature on sexuality in Thailand is almost exclusively authored by non-Thai scholars, some of whom do not speak Thai. In the anthropological tradition of participant-observation, this work is by definition more observation than participation, and is implicitly framed by a referential world rooted outside Thailand…”
It goes on. There are a number of interesting points in just these five pages, and it refers to ten papers that came out of this group of scholars, three of which apparently appeared in a publication called “Culture, Health & Sexuality.”
I gues, Violet, what I was trying to say is: there is, as you know, a vast grey area between Heidi Fleiss and the poor Thai woman who was raped with an iron bar. The differences between them include a lot of factors–access to wealth, culture, class, circumstance. But while it’s obviously easy to point to something as horrific as a woman being raped with an iron bar and say “that’s wrong, duh, you don’t need a cultural context to see that”–when it comes to discussing the greyer areas of exploitation and so forth…that’s where it gets tricky. Tricky already because, as Cicely pointed out, the stigma makes it difficult for even a Western educated, yadda sex worker to speak up (and I am thinking: perhaps would open herself up to more if she came out in defense of her profession). Harder still when we’re talking about an entirely foreign (to me and I am thinking to most of the posters I’ve seen here thus far) culture. There’s more than one way to objectify someone, I guess is my point, and it’s almost impossible to avoid it when the subject isn’t there to speak for herself. Yes, the examples you cite are a sobering counter to the “Happy Hooker” stereotype. And I know that that stereotype does exist–but I haven’t seen anyone invoke it here.
What I am more concerned about is the reduction of the “other,” victimized women in the far-away country to holes and hands and suffering. That’s what the article on colonial thought viz prostitution was about; that’s what I’ve been trying to get at, and I think cicely was saying something to that effect as well. No, no one is saying that horrific abuses do not exist, in Thailand or here, for that matter. But…it’s sort of like, I guess, when “First World” talks about Africa turn into one-note horror/pityfests, and the overall impression seems to be that the whole continent consists of nothing but flyblown children with distended stomachs and heartbreakingly mournful expressions. Yes, the kids are real; yes, the suffering is real. But something about the portrayal turns vaguely pornographic in its own right, sometimes, I think. I mean, now the emotions being summoned forth are outrage and pity instead of domination and lust; but is it really *eeing* the people any better?
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cicely says:
I think that if sex work could truly be de-stigmatized — as opposed to just normalizing the current situation of prostitutes — then that could be revolutionary. Didn’t you wonder aloud once what it would be like if sex work was the most exalted work in the world?
Not ‘the most exalted in the world’, but exalted, yes, I did.
Actually, speaking for myself — though I don’t suppose I qualify as a representative anti-prostitution feminist — it’s not that I think they’re the same thing. I just think that efforts to de-stigmatize prostitution may actually have the effect of normalizing it as it exists today. The stigma isn’t gone, it’s just that now people agree that it’s fine to treat women like crap.
That’s one reason why equal civil rights for prostitutes are so important. Prostitution cannot be left to exist as it does today. When one can go to a sex worker as one goes to a masseuse (without extras) or a physiotherapist, we’ll really be getting somewhere. I know that might seem far-fetched, and doesn’t allow for an emotional content of sex, but here’s where we could actually learn something from experienced sex workers and consumers as well, if we could bring ourselves to ask! (when I say ‘we’ I mean society in general)
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belledame222 says:
And Violet–yes. I get it. Don’t gloss over the reality, okay. But. That level of abuse happens in (for example) Saipan, rapes, forced abortions and all–and yet in theory, at least, that particular form of exploitation is *not* about sex work. It’s about cheap clothing. For the purposes of this topic, it’s quite enough to stick to prostitution pure and simple, and specifically how it works in Thailand. (we still have barely gotten there…)
But when Mandos says,
It occurs to me that the conundrum being expressed in the subtext of this discussion is thus:
Are the institutions of society sufficiently capable to make the distinction between the majority of forced prostitutes and the minority of voluntary prostitutes so as to emancipate the former and allow the latter to continue as they please?”
…I keep thinking, doesn’t that apply to a *lot* of kinds of work? Nationwide, worldwide? Keeping in mind, since we’re going to extreme examples viz sex work, not just talking about the low-grade misery and humiliation of having to dress up in an unwashed Goofy suit in 100+ degree weather for minimum wage; but, say, you know, dangerous physical labor that results in the loss of limbs; exposure to toxic chemicals that bring on cancer; and of course any number of jobs where sexual exploitation and abuse is de facto part of the job even though in theory that’s not what the job is about.
But somehow it seems to always come back to prostitution, prostitution, prostitution. All the other jobs are necessary to some degree, even if they need to be regulated; this one isn’t.
So for me, the fundamental distinction that’s still being batted around is:
*Is* there in fact a distinction between sex work and abuse? Is there any other job in the world that’s as inherently degrading and dangerous?
because I am getting the impression that for at least some posters here the answer is “no,” and “no,” respectively.
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belledame222 says:
>When one can go to a sex worker as one goes to a masseuse (without extras) or a physiotherapist, we’ll really be getting somewhere. I know that might seem far-fetched, and doesn’t allow for an emotional content of sex,>
Cicely, this is how I see it as well; except I very much *do* see it as allowing for the emotional aspects. Sex work (judging from the sex workers that I know) is a combination of bodywork and psychodrama; maybe even with a certain spiritual aspect sometimes.
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Violet says:
Eeing the people? :-)
belledame, you’re right about needing to hear from Thai voices, and that’s why I was thrilled to find that conference proceeding report I cited upthread. The Thai papers are presented by Thai feminists and officials — the English is a bit rough in places because it’s their second language, obviously. Very interesting. They certainly seem to realize how dire the situation is.
After reading through those reports, I’ve started to think that the general trend they’re on is good: what they need is enforcement and time. They have a much, much bigger mountain to climb in terms of reversing entrenched practices and attitudes than most nations, at least in the West.
To that end, work on patriarchy in Thailand is important, and a sex-positive re-imagining for women is necessary.
Unfortunately, the brute fact of slavery and abuse is still there and I think it needs to be dealt with legally. It’s just such an egregious situation that working gradually on gender attitudes isn’t enough. Not enough, not soon enough.
I think something like the double-pronged Swedish approach would make sense, where the pimps and brothel owners (read: slaveowners and rapists) are treated like the criminals they are, and the girls and women are treated like victims to be rescued. Yes, I know that sounds like “infantalizing” — but we’re talking about horribly abused people, many of them slaves and many of them children. The balance of power in Thailand is so enormously in the hands of the pimps/traffickers, and the females (and young males) are so horribly abused, that I think unilateral decriminalization just makes no sense.
I would also like to see an enormous public campaign in Thailand to promulgate the idea that women who are or have been prostitutes are in no way to be considered shameful. The shame belongs to the men who have kidnapped/raped/abused/owned, etc. I also want the men who regularly use prostitutes to be shamed — not because sex is shameful, but because those prostitutes are usually there under duress or outright slavery. Generally what I’m talking about is a shift away from shaming women and onto placing responsibility onto the shoulders of those who take advantage of women. Again, I realize that might sound like infantalizing, but given the situation in Thailand I think it makes sense.
If there are free Thai prostitutes pursuing their trade — grown women — then I would like to see all kinds of aid and help offered to them if they want to get out of prostitution, and no harm done to them if they don’t.
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Violet says:
Is there in fact a distinction between sex work and abuse?
Some people would say no, but I would say that yes, those two things can be distinguished. But I would also say that sex work usually involves abuse (looking at prostitution as it exists worldwide).
Is there any other job in the world that’s as inherently degrading and dangerous?
I don’t know, is there? I honestly can’t think of one. There are people who are fine with it, and good for them, but overall the level of suffering and danger seems extremely high.
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belledame222 says:
eeeEEEeee! :-)
thanks for the pointer to the trafficking compendium upthread; I did miss it, bookmarked.
per most dangerous job: well dunno if it’s “more so,” but…there’s meatpacking, for example…
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belledame222 says:
(goddamit, I’d been avoiding that book. and still eating hamburger. Kenny is reminding me irresistibly of the horse that “I will work harder” in “Animal Farm,” somehow. gahh. maybe Carol Adams was onto something)
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belledame222 says:
Anyway.
There’s a general sort of just-the-stats-ma’am history of women in Thailand here, if anyone’s interested:
I thought this was interesting:
The rate of literacy for women was approximately 60% in 1960, then 91% compared with 95% for men in 2000. It should be noted that the current rates of literacy are stable at around
98% and were more or less the same for men and women between 1990 and 2000. Concerning the level of education,
the percentage of girls in the various levels of education is similar to that of boys, with over 44% in postgraduate
degree courses, and nearly 55% in bachelor degree courses…Informal adult education is very varied and provides an alternative for illiterate people or those who cannot
have access to formal education, which is important for women, particularly in rural areas. The Ministry of Agriculture has developed several training schemes and there are also a number of televised programmes. However, the general level of education for adult women in the countryside remains rather low overall.***
so already i am thinking: urban/rural is part of what may be going on here.
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belledame222 says:
…yeah:
In certain villages, few housewives have never lived in Bangkok and many of the young girls now spend some time working in the capital. This migration provides the chance for a new life, the pleasure of discovering a new world filled with new attractions, the acquisition of independence thanks to money they can earn, personal autonomy, a new culture, and greater
authority. They acquire financial control and autonomy by learning how and when to spend their money.The sense of moral and economic obligations towards the family is also a source of tension and anxiety for these young women, as well as their long-term vulnerability for a certain number
(low wages, low status, no job security) so they seek a compromise in order to provide for their personal needs, preserve their autonomy, and have access to a modern lifestyle while preserving the family ties. They regularly send money to the family, but given their daily needs for everyday life and the level of their wages, these contributions are sometimes episodic,
unless their parents request money for specific needs. Overall, this money sent to families in the provinces is much more significant than the funds from the various governmental development programmes.This has introduced a new dynamic in the relations with the
parents. The young people return to the village with new standards of prestige and authority, which leads to specific
conflicts with the parents who see their authority disputed. The young people want to extricate themselves from the too heavy family obligations even if they continue to help their parents
during the monsoon and take part in domestic tasks. While the parents accept the attraction of the urban wages and the hope for a better life for their children, they also hope for gratitude,
respect, a contribution to the income, and a material contribution to the housework and in the fields in return.
After this experience of urban life, a majority return to the village, in particular at the moment of marriage,
but at a later age, while a minority chooses not to marry. A young woman travelling alone and migrating to the town is suspected of losing her virtue.The parents are more anxious for their daughters, especially if they become sexually experienced, because they can no longer negotiate a marriage dowry. Some who have lost their employment prefer to return to the village to become
nuns, teachers, or to work in humanitarian associations, rather than returning to the fields and submission with all the family obligations. Those who know about the dangers to health
inherent in the sex industry sometimes prefer to leave anyway, knowing that if they earn money they will return with a
better status and financial security, considering that they have nothing to lose because they do not have a future
in their village if they come back to live there.There has been an exodus of young people to the city, for the
following reasons: a long period of schooling, television which relays the cultural attractions of urban life, the example of their elder sisters or brothers, the problems of life in the villages, the desire not to work in the fields or the home..***
Another aspect specific to Thai prostitution that I’m wondering about is the role of the katoey, the “ladyboy.” “Shemales” are a significant percentage of sex workers even over here, I think, and of course there’s gay male prostitution (which almost always seems to disappear from these discussions somehow) but…hmm, yeah.
Like here:
http://www.chiangmainews.com/e.....dyboys.php
“”In Buddhism we believe in the law of karma. If someone did something wrong (sexual transgression) in the past life they might be reincarnated as a transvestite or transgendered person.” The kathoey should therefore be pitied rather than blamed.
“We are also a non-confrontational culture. We have a very common saying ‘Mai pen rai’ (no worries) for almost every situation. When someone steps on your toe you just say “mai pen rai” and it seems like everything is easy going in Thai society. We try to avoid confrontation, but the problems still exist. So even though violence against kathoey or public ridicule might be uncommon, discrimination may be expressed in a subtle or indirect way.”One of these ways is employment. The majority of Thai people are accepting and even supportive of lady boys as long as they are in a field considered suitable such as theatre, make-up artistry, or hair dressing. But there is a much different reality when lady boys want to go into ‘respectable’ professions such as being a doctor or a teacher.
In 1996 the Rajabhat Teachers Institute in Thailand announced that homosexual students would be banned from enrolling in courses leading to degrees in kindergarten and primary school teaching.
“We believe teachers will be a model for students. So if we’ve got a bad model the students will be bad,” says Pipat. “People think if students are educated by transvestites then they will imitate their behaviour and become transvestites.”
There was a backlash from the homosexual community and the ban was determined to be discriminatory and was revoked. However, “many still believe this, including most of the country’s lawmakers, who are mainly heterosexual men,” says Pipat…” -
Sam says:
Infidel said, “Then a majority of turned tricks belong in rape statistics.”
I was house-buying recently and when I looked up neighborhoods for crimes the sexual assaults statistics had a disclaimer Not including prostitution-related crimes. Some combination of ‘you can’t rape a prostitute’, ‘prostitutes are likely to get raped but you shouldn’t worry about it’, and ‘adding the sexual assaults against prostitutes would make the numbers look freakishly large and scare homebuyers away’ was going on with that and I was very displeased to see that rapes-of-hookers-don’t-count disclaimer.
The reality of rape is downplayed an incredible amount in our culture, and the rape of prostitutes occupies a space far beneath that.
I now live eight blocks away from one of the biggest prostitution strolls in a city with several.
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Violet says:
Those who know about the dangers to health inherent in the sex industry sometimes prefer to leave anyway, knowing that if they earn money they will return with a better status and financial security, considering that they have nothing to lose because they do not have a future in their village if they come back to live there.
From what I’ve read, the rural young women really don’t know the dangers; one of the key initiatives that Thai reformers stress is the need for education. Young rural girls are lured by false ideas of what’s in store because they simply lack the knowledge; then once they’re in the clutches of the pimp they owe a huge debt and/or they’re physically prevented from leaving. And the working conditions are unspeakable.
Definitely education is needed, big-time. And help for the girls who’ve been trapped.
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Violet says:
Sam, do you live in Canada?
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CR says:
It even goes a little like that over here in LA. Young girls answer ads in the paper offering modelling and acting jobs- no experience neccessary.. They go to the office. In reality, these guys and women are in kahoots with “party escort services”. They interview the girl and assess her ’situation- and also her mental state”. If she’s pretty, and has the “right stuff”- they will tell her that they can help her to make contacts in the movie, commercial and modelling agencies by putting them in situations where they can meet fancy important people in the industry. They are told “this is how it’s done in this town”. What they really are doing is getting paid to provide “party dressing” with young, pretty girls. They are not real agents at all- unless you concider and sophisticated pimp and agent. And then it kind of takes on a life of it’s own after that for alot of girls. They end up being prostitutes always with the desperate hope of ‘being discovered” by one of the johns. It’s not glamourous at all.
I think if current prostitutes came on here and tried to tell it how it was in a brothel- or being as street prostitute. If they talked about the johns and the madames and what all went on and what was expected of them and what it took to do their job. The sisters would get steamrolled, unless she was saying what the intellegencia wanted them to say. She’d get confused, and start stumbling, and it would start to kind of feel the same as it does in their everyday life. Folks just messing with them for their own use.
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CR says:
And I meant that as going both ways. If a hundred sisters and cousins came on and told it how it was for them- unless they were saying what folks wanted hear, one way of the other- it’d be a mess. And if one hundred said one thing, and one said the other- if it matched with someone’s point of view- that one would be heard- and the others dismissed (a little like in thier real life).
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CR says:
And all this talk about protitutes. There hasn’t been enough mentioned about one aspect of it that keeps girls and guys doing it probably more than nearly anything else. And that is that almost all of them- the fancy ones to the street protitute got themselves some wild honkin’ drug habits. These drug habits make it very hard for them to be employed elsewhere for too long. It takes alot of money to support the habits- and you can’t make it that fast in a minimum wage job. It becomes a viscous cycle.
Alot of very game girls and guys will do pretty well if they get out of that environment. Completely away from it and start fresh in a new place in new circumstance to pursue thier dreams. A little leg up, and that’s all it takes for some. For others- it’s a tough row to hoe when you got a herion habit. Not impossible. Just a tough row to hoe.
Just for the record, the stuff that goes on in the life of a brothel is pretty lurid. things the mind can’t even think of. And it’s not just one or two over blown stories. It’s as nasty as it gets in the mind of a human. Not repeatable in mixed company. -
belledame222 says:
mm. lurid, yes.
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cicely says:
Another aspect specific to Thai prostitution that I’m wondering about is the role of the katoey, the “ladyboy.” “Shemales” are a significant percentage of sex workers even over here, I think, and of course there’s gay male prostitution (which almost always seems to disappear from these discussions somehow)
In the NZ industry police assessment, up to 30% of street prostitutes overall, mainly in the biggest cities, were transgender or transexual. The prostitutes collective estimated that up to 50% of street prostitutes were transgender or transexual, and that they make up around 5% of prostitutes overall. A further 15% of street prostitutes were male. (Police assessment) Private advertisements for male workers comprised 29%of the total proportion in Wellington (second biggest city in NZ - and the capital), and 13% in Auckland - the biggest city. Possibly these figures could be used as at least a guide to what might be expected in other countries.
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Violet says:
Just for the record, the stuff that goes on in the life of a brothel is pretty lurid. things the mind can’t even think of. And it’s not just one or two over blown stories. It’s as nasty as it gets in the mind of a human. Not repeatable in mixed company.
I know. It’s deeply sad.
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Sam says:
And that is that almost all of them- the fancy ones to the street protitute got themselves some wild honkin’ drug habits.
I’m glad you brought this up because I’ve come to learn it is essential. A colleague in England once told me that she didn’t think anything could be done about prostitution until something is done about drug addictions and availability. Her focus is more on helping prostituted women where mine is on pimps, traffickers, prostitute-using men and those who defend them.
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belledame222 says:
So I’m wondering, then, since it does seem related in maybe more ways than one: positions on the War On Street Drugs? Decriminalization, yes, no, maybe, some?
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belledame222 says:
by the way, this post from Jean at You Are Here feels relevant to this tangent, if not to the original thread:
http://thesinkingfeeling.blogs.....-know.html
The most serious offense for 65% of women in federal prisons and 31.5% of women in state prisons is violation of drug laws.
The number of women incarcerated in prisons and jails in the USA is approximately 10 times more than the number of women incarcerated in Western European countries, even though Western Europe’s combined female population is about the same size as that of the USA.
From 1995 to 2004 the annual growth of the female inmate population averaged 4.8%, higher than the 3.1% increase in male inmate population. By year-end 2004 women accounted for 7.0% of all prisoners, up from 6.1% in 1995 and 5.7% in 1990.
Women are the fastest growing and least violent segment of prison and jail populations. 85.1% of female jail inmates are behind bars for nonviolent offenses.
In 2004, there were a reported 2,387,879 arrests of women, of which 236,109 were for drug offenses — 18.8% of the 1,251,059 drug arrests that year.
In 1997 a US Justice Department investigation of women’s prisons in Arizona concluded that the authorities failed to protect women from sexual misconduct by correctional officers and other staff. The misconduct included rape, sexual relationships, sexual touching and fondling, and “without good reason, frequent, prolonged, close-up and prurient viewing during dressing, showing and use of toilet facilities.” (CIV97-476, US District of Arizona).
Retaliation for reports of abuse impedes women’s access to protection of their human rights. One woman who won a lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons for sexual abuse reported that she was beaten, raped and sodomized by three men who in the course of the attack told her that they were attacking her in retaliation for providing a statement to investigators.
Sick and pregnant women are routinely shackled during hospitalization and childbirth if they are inmates of prisons or jails in the USA…”
That’s what it comes down to, I fear. The flagrant injustices—the brutalities that get memorialized on tape, the life sentence based on an eyewitness identification that DNA proves wrong after twenty years, the inexplicable interdepartmental memo detailing racial profiling procedures—are what boils our blood. Not the constant drumbeat of women being taken away from their children, being raped and brutalized because they stole or engaged in prostitution or sold a few bags of weed to make ends meet. This is where ‘we’ are at fault. ‘We’ haved dedcided that we will not tolerate certain behaviors because we perceive those behaviors to be dangerous in some way, but we don’t account for when those behaviors are the only realistic mechanisms of survival. We brush off the everyday tragic stories as the results of stupidity or what-you-get-when instead of acknowledging them for what they are, the results of a system that (excuse the analogy, but I think it’s accuarte) goes on canned hunts after an entire segment of the population by creating the conditions under which certain behaviors are inescapable, and then criminalizing those behaviors. Kill the poor, indeed. Our conscience is assuaged by boundaries that we haven’t examined. Why are 130,000 women under daily threat of violence when they did nothing violent themselves? Because we have decided that they are expendable.
Oh, all women are under a constant threat of violence, you say. Everytime I’m in a room with a man, I’m under a threat of violence, you say.
How about if you’re in that room everyday, and have no way of getting out of that room for a year? Or five years? Or twenty years?
How about if that room is locked and
…the woman raping you is also your ‘cell mate’?
…the man raping you has the only key, and it was given to him by the State?How about if you know that you are surrounded by people, but no one can help you even if they wanted to because
…they’re locked in a room, too?
…they don’t want it to happen to them, so they’ll keep their mouth shut?And why is this happening to you? Because your baby needed diapers. Because there are no jobs where you live. Because you’d already tried everything else.
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CR says:
I don’t make any judgements about the drug thing. A girl can pick up some self destructive habits. Pretty easy to do. and the pimps and trafficers do their part in helping them- ugly stuff- ugly stuff. Give a confused and troubled girl a nice shot of heroin or a light bulb full of meth. Way to go.
It’s true women are being locked up for totally non violent offenses, and I think that it’s a crime. No, I think the criminal justice system in that sense is a racket. It gives alot of educated people jobs at the expense of the most troubled of our citizens. They screw with them- and can ruin their lives. I have a readl problem with the system as it stands right now.
Sam, you go get ‘em. You know the real score. I just like to go one girl at a time- personal- because thats how I always do things.But politically, and charitabley, I’m on it with you. People need all the help they can get from whoever. It takes all kinds- all ways. It isn’t good the way it is right now on many levels. Needs to change- and i know it can and will- no doubt about it. I wish more congress people and media got in the act.
“lurid”– worse than that. As bad as it gets. It’s hard for a normal mind to even go here. The things some of these johns get off on. And the things these girls must accomidate. There are alot of troubled people out there. They let things go too far in there minds and sensibilties. They forget themselves. The johns I mean. It’s pretty bad. Hope any johns reading this can realize a little bit and pull it together. It’s never too late to pull it together. They can do themeselves proud.
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Mandos says:
Uhhhh….
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Violet says:
I deleted the comment that made Mandos go “uhhhh.”
