Rapist to victim: I didn’t mean to hurt you with that lit cigarette and pool cue

Sunday, March 12th, 2006 · 73 Comments »

The three Orange County men who gang-raped an unconscious girl and videotaped the atrocity have each been sentenced to 6 years in prison. With credit for good behavior and time already served, they’ll probably only spend another 18 to 24 months in jail. It’s a sign of the times that this is generally seen as a good result, since there was widespread expectation that the judge might sentence them to probation only.

Let’s review what the men did to the girl:

The men filmed themselves repeatedly shoving a pool cue, Snapple bottle, lit cigarette and apple juice can into the girl’s vagina and rectum. At several points during the video, they laughed and noted that the girl was unconscious. At another point, they felt her abdomen to gauge how far the pool cue had penetrated.

Six years? Jesus Fucking Christ with a pool cue. How about life imprisonment?

This entire case has been one insult after another to the victim, whom the defense attorneys have variously accused of being a slut (of course), of faking unconsciousness, of agreeing to the video-taped gang-rape so she could be a porn star, and of enjoying the use of sex toys (lit cigarettes?). In one cross-examination, the defense attorney actually asked the victim if she liked to swallow.

The sentencing hearing was yet another charade, as the gang-rapists got up to “apologize” to the victim. Here’s what Greg Haidl, the lead rapist and videographer, had to say:

“It was never my intention to hurt you and cause you pain. I can’t take back any negative feelings and emotions, and I’m sorry for that also.”

So apparently Greg just didn’t realize that being impaled on a pool cue might hurt. He had no idea that a lit cigarette in the vagina or anus might cause pain, not to mention permanent scarring. Poor Greg. He just didn’t know.

And in case you’re wondering if there’s any ambiguity about what’s on the tape, here’s what the jury foreman said about it:

“The tape proved they were guilty. If you show that video on the news, everybody’s view would be that these guys should hang. People would go crazy. You know what I mean? It was primal. It looked like savages having their way with a piece of meat.”

Six years.

Filed under: Rape · Tags:

73 Responses to “Rapist to victim: I didn’t mean to hurt you with that lit cigarette and pool cue”

  1. manxome says:

    It’s important that people are reminded exactly what they’ve been convicted for. I’ve got to hand it to you, going back through those details like that, so that no one forgets.

  2. Violet says:

    It was hard, Manx. I actually found myself shaking and on the verge of tears. If I lived a thousand years I would never understand how people can be so cavalier about this shit.

  3. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    The Biblical punishment for this is stoning. It seems impossible that America has become so uncaring. I want those bastards hung from a strong Texas oak tree along with anyone else who does something like that, but I AM willing to be a BIT lieberal: First offense: mandatory gender reassignment. Make the guys girls. If they or their families can’t afford it, then the state could just lop everything off and stop the bleeding with a branding iron. Second offense….well, I don’t suppose there would be any second offenders, but a second conviction for
    ANYTHING would mean the gallows.

  4. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    Socks, I am sure you think you know what happens during sex crimes. Maybe you do. I used to be a forensic scientist and I can confidently state that what people do to one another does not make it into the tabloids. If you want to study the phenomenon to see why I think all sex offenders should be killed immediately upon capture, I recommend some of the standard criminal profiling texts by Brent Turvey. They have pictures of what homicide investigators and forensic people walk into every day. They are probably at your local library. Don’t check them out, just thumb through them. Some people need to be aborted at any age.

  5. Violet says:

    Actually, Pastor, what little I’ve read of sex crime forensics — well, I wish I could unread it. I started a book on it once and became so upset I had to get the book out of my house. Literally — it wasn’t enough to close the book; I had to get it out of the house. I still wish I could get those images out of my mind.

  6. will says:

    Personally, I think six years is a pretty long time in jail in Virginia where we do not have parole. (If you behave in jail, you end up serving about 87 percent of the time given.)

    But, based on what the jurors are saying about the time, I wouldnt have been surprised with a sentence of 15 to 20 years.

  7. will says:

    Also, looking back at your post, once you plead not guilty and say it was consensual, you look like an idiot saying you are sorry.

    After a defendant has pled not guilty but then found guilty, he is left with the tough choice of apologizing and looking like an idiot or don’t apologize and risk looking unremorseful.

    I think the girl was fortunate that there was a video. That way the juror can see for themselves what happened.

    What a horrible thing for her to have to go through.

  8. manxome says:

    Pastor Al E Pistle says: I used to be a forensic scientist and I can confidently state that what people do to one another does not make it into the tabloids.

    I couldn’t look at a whole book. I have enough images from when I used to work at a photo lab. One day everyone’s talking about/looking at these dupe slides, and I took a look to understand what they were talking about. Apparently we had a contract with Quantico, these were evidence slides (most were boring). Later I called Quantico, I’m sure they thought I was nuts, not really knowing what I wanted them to tell me (they only said that they were for training). I had not been able to get these images out of my head for weeks. VIctims without a story, horrible photos, and worst of all, with one particular one, a sense that had immediately washed over me of being in the killer’s head. I know that’s necessary for profiling and such, but I never would have thought I’d get that sense, and not be prepared for it, just from some scene photos. That I’d be able to tell from images who likely did it because of how they did it. Ugh.

  9. Infidel says:

    Sick mother fuckers. Burn in hell! Die a slow and tortuous death! What human beings do to human beings. Then what human beings do to human beings when they find out. What it does to human beings just to see what human beings do to other human beings. Fuck’n human beings. All I would like in this world is for all the fucked up human beings to be gone, so the rest of us human beings that wouldn’t even think of thinking about the shit human beings do to each other could do whatever we’d do if the human beings that not only think but do the fucking shit ass things they do to other human beings were gone.

  10. Jeff says:

    Six years? That’s rediculous! The only way that could be considered even minimally acceptable and fair was if the 6 years were to start the day of sentencing, with none of this time served or time off for good behavior crap. What the fuck about their behavior during the commission of this atrocity?!? Excuse me, but “I’m sorry” doesn’t quite cut it or clear the slate of their actions to a point that even exemplary behavior in the future should be counted in their favor. Let them show us they can be good people once more, AFTER they get out, when the only incentive they have is to get on with their lives instead of knocking a couple of years off their sentence. Wanna bet they’ll turn right back into assholes? About the only real justice we can hope for now in this case is that these three punks learn how to play their little game from the position ON the pool table during the next 18 to 24 months.

  11. Alon Levy says:

    Six years? Jesus Fucking Christ with a pool cue. How about life imprisonment?

    Do harsh punishments ever deter people from committing crimes?

  12. Jeff says:

    Do harsh punishments ever deter people from committing crimes?

    Maybe some people, but not usually those who have the proclivity to do something like this to begin with, But if a harsh punishment meant that just one girl, sometime, somewhere did not have to go through an ordeal like this, that’s quite enough justification.

  13. Alon Levy says:

    I think this ordeal is more about the necessity of rape shields than about harsh punishments.

  14. Jeff says:

    How would you propose to shield every female in the world from ever being raped? It’s practically impossible to stop a crime that nobody is aware is going to happen until it is happening. The only thing left is punishment of the criminal.

  15. Alon Levy says:

    I’m talking about the rules that prohibit defense attorneys in rape cases from asking victims certain questions, such as “Do you like to swallow?” and “What were you wearing?”.

    As for punishing the criminal, it’s impractical in this case. The USA’s rape rate is about 70 per 100,000 women; at 50% prosecution and 30 years per rapist, it works out to an incarceration rate about 500 per 100,000 people, whereas anything over 200 is simply insane (the USA’s current rate is about 700, which reflects the insanely high penalties drug offenses and petty crimes incur in the country).

  16. Jeff says:

    I agree that the system is pretty close to being broke, but the way to fix it is to reduce those insanely high penalties for non-violent crimes to something more commensurate with the infraction, not going soft on Neanderthals who commit sadistic, brutal crimes by saying “Ther’re too many people in jail already, we should just give these guys a couple of years.” Screw that. Let a half dozen pot smokers out early to make room for them, then lock their asses up.

  17. Hypatia's Father says:

    On one hand, we can all agree that the sentence seems… measly, inadequate. But, on the other hand, truly, how does a civilized society punish a monster? By most psychologists’ accounts, sexual offenders are rarely “cured”. How can we respond to monstrosity without any reliable means to create conditions in the offender, punitive or therapuetic, for authentic remorse, regret?

  18. Jeff says:

    You’ll probably never see any real remorse, but they will grow to regret. Not their actions, but the fact that they were caught, convicted and punished, but the main part is, since they’re rarely “cured”, what’s your opposition to keeping them in a place where they can no longer loose their sickness on society for as long as possible?

  19. Infidel says:

    On the books in Louisianna:
    Whoever commits the crime of aggravated rape shall be punished by life imprisonment at hard labor without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence. However, if the victim was under the age of twelve years … the offender shall be punished by death or life imprisonment at hard labor without benefit of parole, probation, or suspension of sentence, in accordance with the determination of the jury.
    …”without the benefit of parole”… oh for these fuckers to be in Louisianna.

  20. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    responding to 17: We are not talking about someone stealing a bicycle. That sort of crime can be punished and a lesson learned. One cannot punish a rabid dog for being rabid and locking it away until it dies is pointless. People who commit savage crimes are aberrations. They look like the rest of us but their minds are wired differently. Punishments conceived by a ‘civilized’ society simply go unnoticed by them. They don’t care if they sit in a cell for twenty years because they live in a fantasy world thinking about what they will do the day they get out and convert that fantasy to reality. They don’t need punishment. They need to be killed immediately. Now consider this: It is likely that one of these animals lives in your neighborhood or will get out of prison and move to your neighborhood very soon. It is MORE likely that you will be tortured and mutilated by him than be the victim of terrorism on American soil.

  21. Hypatia's Father says:

    Jeff writes:
    “what’s your opposition to keeping them in a place where they can no longer loose their sickness on society for as long as possible?”

    I’m not opposed. I want them removed from society. But what do we do with them when they are removed? And how long do we keep them removed? Forever? 6 years, to me, seems inadequate and arbitrary.

  22. Hypatia's Father says:

    In response to 20: Yes, yes, I’m familiar with the rabid dog argument as follows: You don’t shoot a rabid dog to punish it; you shoot it so it won’t bite somebody.

    Now, it’s easy to tell when a dog has gone rabid, and thus qualifies as ‘defective’. But, I think we’ll find that it gets harder to build consensus around what qualifies as ‘defective’ in a human being. Or at least it’s harder when fine-tuning our definitions re. what is defective, though curable, and what is hopelessly broken. In this case, the victim is lucky that the brutality was documented on video. And as far as that goes, I’m happy to see the rapists get what they have coming, and I only wish a harsher sentence had been passed down.

    But, I also happen to believe that spouse abuse is also a clearcut indicator of a profoundly impaired human being, one who is similarly ‘defective’–though perhaps not in the same way. And for some reason, this question produces much hemming and hawing and clearing of throats, and vague mumblings about how we need to take in each party’s perspective into account.

    Puke.

    How should abusers be treated? As curable? As defective in one domain of their life, but able to be given the benefit of the doubt in other domains, such as, say, their relationship with their children? Who should make these decisions, juries? Please.

    Rapists and abusers are defective. Why do we gnash our teeth and call out for harsher sentences for the former but have such ambivalence for the latter? (Yes, I know, choice present company excepted.)

  23. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    You punish when punishment works. Invariably, that is before the age of 9. You lock away when that seems appropriate. To me, it never is. It costs between 50 and 100k to keep one person in prison for one year. They buff up, watch TV, get good means, an education if they want it, the best medical care and other perks not necessarily available to their victims. And they don’t have to pay back the money or life they stole. So I’m thinking that prison should be cruel and unusual punishment so that people will not EVER go back. Something like 4 years of disarming antipersonnel mines in Cambodia.

    But what we are really discussing is a serial offender. This is one of Turvey’s old papers, but it still applies http://www.corpus-delicti.com/danger.html

    Serial offenders need to be killed immediately, not imprisoned and released. Maybe if you would avail yourself with one of the books I recommended to Socks, you will understand why these people cannot be walking the streets.

  24. gordo says:

    HP (21)–

    I’m with you. 6 years is way too little, but to say that they should be executed goes too far. One of the boys was a virtual non-participant. If I had to bet, I’d say the guy who’s going to do something like this again is Haidl, the ringleader.

    Alon (13)–

    Unfortunately, this was a case in which no shield law could have protected the defendant. She’d previously had consensual sex with one of the defendants, on video. The defense abused this to the maximum possible degree, of course, claiming that the fact that she’d had sex with one and had shaved her pubic hair made her, in effect, fair game. That was a major factor in the first trial, which ended in a hung jury.

    Infidel (19)–

    They weren’t convicted of aggravated rape. If they hadn’t been a bunch of rich suburban kids, or if she hadn’t been from “the wrong side of the tracks,” then perhaps they would have been. But prosecutors were very shy on this case from the beginning, for a variety of reasons.

    One was the backgrounds of the rapists and their victim, and another was the fact that Haidl’s father had been one of Orange County’s top law enforcement officials. Haidl’s father spent millions on his son’s defense, including public relations, detectives that did more intimidating than investigating, and hiring ex-jurors from the first trial as a focus group to help the defense at the second trial.

    The coverage by the LA Times and the OC Register was an absolute disgrace. Their reporters hobnobbed regularly with the defense team, passing on their leaks as established facts. And Haidl’s father used all of his connections to law enforcement and the prosecutor’s office.

    Will (7)–

    Not only would there have been no conviction without a videotape, there would have been no case at all. I’m relying on memory here, but I don’t think the victim filed charges until the tape was public. She recalled so little of the incident that all she could testify to was that she was partying with the boys, started feeling woozy, and woke up in an abondoned car the next morning. She knew she’d been violated, of course, but didn’t know enough that anyone would have listened to her.

    I’ve followed this case for awhile now, and to tell the truth, I’m a bit surprised that anyone was punished at all. After the first hung jury, I thought it likely that there wouldn’t even be a second trial. As outrageous as the sentence is, for me it was a bit of a relief, as I half expected them to get community service.

  25. belledame222 says:

    >If they hadn’t been a bunch of rich suburban kids, or if she hadn’t been from “the wrong side of the tracks,” then perhaps they would have been.

    ***sigh***

    god, this shit makes me crazy.

    Now I’m reminded of the case in New Jersey back in the 80′s–Bernard Lefkowitz documented it in a book called “Our Guys,” and there was a TV special, you might recall: a bunch of jocks from “good families” raped a mildly retarded, naive girl who they’d been tormenting and scapegoating since childhood, with a baseball bat (among other degradations).

    The book was damn near impossible to read, because I kept wanting to reach out and rend someone–the spoiled jocks, their enabling parents, the creepy misogynist lawyer trying to paint the girl (who essentially just really, really wanted to be liked, was the gist, and didn’t really seem to understand that she had a right to say “no,” not just to sex, but in general–whether that was because of her retardation or because she was never taught boundaries or both, hard to say) as a “Lolita.”

    Oh, and lots about “what about the poor boys’ future,” like yes, THEY’RE the victims (at one point the lawyer actually asked one of the witnesses if she’d ever stopped to consider whether the boys needed protection from her!) In the end they got a slap on the wrist. Then a few years later, one of the defendants was prosecuted again for dragging a co-ed into the bushes and assaulting her. Surprise, surprise. Gahhhh.

  26. gordo says:

    Pastor–

    You make prison out to be some kind of summer camp. Visit Amnesty International and see what they have to say about our prisons. People who have been to prison often go to extraordinary lengths to keep from going back.

    Prison isn’t much like in the movies. The prisoners aren’t allowed to sit around all day watching TV. TV time is limited, and is reserved as a reward for good behavior. The medical care available is a far cry from “the best.” The mainstay of their diets is bologna sandwiches. The Sheriff in Arizona brags that he spends more per capita to feed the dogs than the prisoners. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

    You seem to think that rehabilitation is impossible. How do you explain Tex Watson, Manson’s right-hand man. It was Watson who actually went into people’s homes, and tied up a pregnant woman as her fetus was cut out of her. He acted as the “squad leader” on Manson’s sick “missions.” And while it appears that some of Manson’s group will never be rehabilitated, several appear to be completely rehabilitated. That doesn’t mean that they should be released, but it does mean that you can’t tell who can be saved and who can’t be.

  27. Hypatia's Father says:

    Pastor from # 23:

    “Serial offenders need to be killed immediately, not imprisoned and released. Maybe if you would avail yourself with one of the books I recommended to Socks, you will understand why these people cannot be walking the streets.”

    Okay, I read the Turvey paper. I don’t get that the author is advocating killing all sexual offenders. In fact, what’s emphasized is a kind of tool for making treatment distinctions based on 3 criteria: degree of sociopathology, psychopathology, antisocial behavior, etc; the choice of underaged victims; and the type-profile of the rapist.

    For argument’s sake, let’s say that we just can’t kill them. (Bear with me and let’s say even if based on Turvey’s 3 criteria the offender presents an at-risk profile, let’s just try a thought experiment that says death penalty is offlimits.) So… What do we do with them while they are being kept from society at large?

    And what do we do with “subthreshold” offenders like chronic batterers? Do they get off because beating our wives, with or without rape, is insufficient as a demonstration of psychopathology?

    Pastor, you quoted my liklihood of having a female in my neighborhood killed or raped by a sex offender as higher than the probability of becoming a victim of a terrorist. I’m with you, and in no way doubt the comparison.

    Now, take a guess at what the stats are re. domestic violence.

    My point is that all of these monstrosities are of a single spectrum, though some are deemed more psychopathic than others. And as such, they implicate a severe dysfunction in human empathy.

  28. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    to 26: Funny you should mention TEX WATSON. I was his keeper in module 2400 of the LA County Main Central Jail from the day they brought him back from Texas until he was sentenced. And I knew the girls personally. There was a picture in the LA Times of me talking to them on Spring Street below the Hall of Justice Jail when Charlie was in there. Some of the girls (minus Lynette) might eventually get parole, but Tex never will as long as I am alive.

    Write them here:

    Charles Manson, B-33920
    4A 3R 14L
    P. O. Box 3476
    Corcoran, CA 93212

    Charles Watson
    B-37999
    P.O. Box 409000
    Ione, CA 95640-9000

    Susan Atkins-Whitehouse
    W08304
    P.O. Box 6000
    Corona, CA 92878-6000

    Patricia Krenwinkel
    W08314
    P.O. Box 6000
    Corona, CA 92878-6000

    Leslie Van Houten
    W13378
    P.O. Box 6000
    Corona, CA 92878-6000

    Robert Beausoleil
    B-28302 Oregon State Prison
    2605 State Street
    Salem, OR 97310-0505

    Bruce McGregor Davis
    B-41079
    P.O. Box 8101
    San Luis Obispo, CA 93409

    Lynette Fromme
    06075-180
    FMC Carswell
    P.O. Box 27137
    Admin. Unit Fort Worth, TX 76127

    I have been to some of their parole hearings. I have seen the inside of prisons. Don’t get me wrong, prison is not a fun place, but it doesn’t deter people. It merely lets them plan how not to get caught the next time. The question then was how do we punish people without executing them, even if we understand that they will re-commit. We don’t. Serial rapists need to be castrated. Serial murderers need to have limbs amputated. No prison costs, no repeat offenses.

    Battering. OK, that goes on a lot. The batterer needs to go to jail and have the crap beat out of him or her, or have the victim’s family do it. And I mean a serious whoop-ass. If there is a consequence, people will think twice about it. Spending 12 hours in jail and being sentenced to anger management class is not a consequence.

    Remember always that the police don’t arrive until you are already dead. The responsibility for YOUR safety resides with YOU. That’s why I carry a Glock.40 (legally) and pick my friends.

  29. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    I’m 5’11″ and Tex Watson is a couple inches taller, but we weighed about the same in 1969. He was initially on suicide watch in a padded cell and I sat at the door watching him. When he first got there he couldn’t decide whether to try for an insanity defense or not, so he would try to act nuts about half the time. We all got a great kick out of that and would laugh at him. All of us had the authority to open the cell if necessary.

    One day I was the only one visible to him and he walked up to the door and knocked on the window for me to open the communication port. When I did, he said that if he could get his hands on me he would kill me. He was not handcuffed or restrained in any way, so I thought he ought to have a chance. I radioed that I was entering 2400, unlocked the door, ran in and slapped the piss out of him. Since ‘calling the door’ was indicative of an emergency, about ten more deputies showed up within 20 seconds, but he had already decided he didn’t want to kill anyone else. He never threatened another officer and became a model prisoner. Charlie pulled the same stunt over at the Hall of Justice Jail. Once. Charlie was a scrawny little punk. He’d threaten you and then run if you opened the door.

  30. Hypatia's Father says:

    So, pastor, how did you get called to do the Lord’s work?

  31. Infidel says:

    Blessed are they who follow the law of the Lord!

  32. Violet says:

    She’d previously had consensual sex with one of the defendants, on video. The defense abused this to the maximum possible degree, of course, claiming that the fact that she’d had sex with one and had shaved her pubic hair made her, in effect, fair game.

    That kind of thinking is so illogical it beggars description. Haidl was her sort-of boyfriend — how does that make what he did to her more acceptable? Because they had been lovers, that means he had the right to commit atrocities on her? Shit, I guess if she’d been married to the guy he would have had the right to murder her. Actually, from her statements at the sentencing I think that the fact that Haidl had been her friend made it much worse in her mind (and I agree) — in addition to the raping and maiming, there was the personal betrayal.

    Deconstructing the thought process that makes people believe that because a woman has slept with a guy she deserves to be raped and maimed by him, shows how clearly society utterly despises women. The fact that she was a sexual being, a non-innocent, in some people’s minds made her fair game for any atrocity.

    In the quote I gave from the jury foreman, I omitted the remarks that came just before, where he acknowledged that the girl had gone to the house willingly and had gotten drunk. Why is that caveat necessary? How does that excuse the crime? Imagine that the victim in this case was one of Haidl’s male friends who’d been at the party drinking with the guys. Then Haidl and the other two drugged him and proceeded to anally rape him with a pool cue, lit cigarette, Snapple bottle, and juice can. Can you imagine any defense attorney excusing it by saying, “well, the boy did go to the house voluntarily and he had been drinking…”

  33. Violet says:

    Personally, I think six years is a pretty long time in jail in Virginia where we do not have parole.

    Their time served so far has been in the county jail, which I expect is not nearly as onerous as penitentiary time. Now they’ll go to the state pen and maybe serve 18 months. Doesn’t seem like much to me.

  34. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    It was a long way from my first career to my calling, Brother. But it started one day when my neighbor’s wife called me over, said she had burned a tray of cookies and needed to be spanked…and that I would have to do it since her husband was gone for the weekend. So there was some spanking and whatnot. Then she told someone else and pretty soon I was spending all my time disciplining wayward women. That’s how I met Violet. Then I realized that they were all members of the same Southern Baptist church and I determined to find TRUE CHRISTIANITY(TM); save them from their sins on a more orderly basis and collect the tithes for my own church instead of having them pay some wet-noodle pastor. The rest is history. I became a learned theologian, was accepted at Landover Baptist and have, over many years, worked my way up to a position of male dominance as GOD commands.

  35. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    32: Shit, I guess if she’d been married to the guy he would have had the right to murder her.
    -Violet

    Leviticus

    And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean.–15:19

    And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.–15:24

    Thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.–18:19

    And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged.–19:20

    And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death.–20:12

    If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they.–20:14

    If a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.–20:16

    And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.–20:18

    A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.–20:27

    And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.–.21:9

    Numbers

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.–31:15-19

    Deuteronomy

    And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women … shalt thou take unto thyself.–20:13-14

    And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her …. Thou shalt go in unto her.–21:11-13

    If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated ….–21:15

    If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ….–22:13

    I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid. Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city.–22:14-15

    These are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity.–22:18-21

    But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.–22:20-21

    If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.–22:23-24

    When two men strive together on with another, and the wife of the one … putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.–25:11-12

    Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her.–28:30

    The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them.–28:56-57

  36. Violet says:

    but the way to fix it is to reduce those insanely high penalties for non-violent crimes to something more commensurate with the infraction

    What Jeff said. No jail time for white collar crimes; no jail time for non-violent offenses; no jail time for victimless crimes like drug possession (which shouldn’t be illegal anyway, goddamnit). Then we’d have room to lock away violent criminals for the maximum, instead of giving them just a few years.

    Of course I’ve been advocating this position since I was 12 and have yet to convince the powers that be.

  37. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    Violet, sometimes your lack of logical thought amazes me. Of course this was all consentual. The opposite of “NO” is “YES” and, since the girl was unconscious, it would have been impossible for her to say “no”. And since she had said ‘yes” in the past, it is reasonable to assume that she meant it was ok to mutilate her.

  38. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    36: No jail time for white collar crimes; no jail time for non-violent offenses; no jail time for victimless crimes like drug possession (which shouldn’t be illegal anyway, goddamnit). Then we’d have room to lock away violent criminals for the maximum, instead of giving them just a few years.
    -Violet

    Oh. So I can rape the Enron employees, THOUSANDS OF THEM, of their life savings without risking jail time? Sorry, but ALL criminal activity must have consequences. You lie to get us into a war? No biggie. Except that BILLION dollars a DAY we are spending on it is MY SOCIAL SECURITY.

    I do agree that a lot of things which are crimes shouldn’t be. But I have a difficult time with the concept of ‘victimless’ crime. Someone is always going to be the victim. I’ll debate it with you if you wish.

  39. Violet says:

    No, I don’t think the Enron crimes are victimless. (I listed white collar, non-violent, and victimless as three separate things. White collar crime is non-violent, but it’s not victimless). And there’s no question those guys should pay somehow. I just think our jails need to be used for sequestering violent criminals. That wouldn’t be necessary if we had less violent crime, but that’s another discussion. The fact is that our prisons are so crowded the average rapist spends something like 2 years in jail.

    It’s interesting to think about what would be appropriate punishment for Enron types. I think we can be more creative than jail time.

  40. Pastor Al E Pistle says:

    39: We can be more creative than jail time with ALL criminals. Jail is just an excuse not to have to deal with them so they can’t do it again.

    We all have our hot buttons. If someone is raping and murdering women, I am safe. He is not a threat to me. Why should I care? If I don’t work for Enron, why should I care? If I’m not in the bombsight of an F-18 over Iraq why should I care?

    If someone is breaking into my house 6,000 miles and an ocean away from you why should YOU care?

    Because we are a society. We should ALL care. But when the politicians don’t care anymore, when our heroes turn to crime (Randy Cunningham), when the police don’t come when you call them, people stop caring and try to fix it by enacting stricter laws. It doesn’t work. We can’t enforce the laws we have now, many of them are nonsensical, and if the president or someone in power doesn’t like them, they simply ignore them.

    However, I have a solution. I’m retired in paradise. I am self-sufficient. I’m single. I don’t want to deal with it. You deal with it. :-)

  41. Alon Levy says:

    What Jeff said. No jail time for white collar crimes; no jail time for non-violent offenses; no jail time for victimless crimes like drug possession (which shouldn’t be illegal anyway, goddamnit). Then we’d have room to lock away violent criminals for the maximum, instead of giving them just a few years.

    You’d never have enough room for that, unless the USA’s crime rate decreased to Japanese levels. Even in Europe, the only offense that nets high jail times is homicide – for example, in Britain only one rapist in ten does time, and the average sentence length for those who do do time is 4 years (mind you, both numbers are much lower for all other offenses except murder).

    It’s interesting to think about what would be appropriate punishment for Enron types. I think we can be more creative than jail time.

    The nature of corporate crime is such that the best deterrent is very high fines. Corporate crime is a direct consequence of the fact that corporations exist to maximize profits; it’s then the job of the government to set up fines that make sure it’s not profitable for a corporation to inflict negative externalities on its surroundings, or for executives to steal from the shareholders. The current problems of corporate crime are problems of enforcement, rather than of wrong penalties.

  42. Infidel says:

    In the time of Deuteronomy and Leviticus there was even more an absence of altruism and prevalence of satifaction then even now. No one cared a whit for each other and everyone did whatever they wanted. Before the laws there was no prosecution, there were no consequences. If I wanted to eat your baby I did, and if I were bigger and stronger you had to watch. Fuck you, Fuck all of you- there are forensic photographs now in Quanitco of what it can be- I am telling you that before Leviticus it was.

  43. Infidel says:

    3000 years from now it might seem appropriate to say there was no rape on the international space station. Today it makes no sense. Back 3000 years a human being might only have wife, livestock, children, and land. Hundreds of thousands of basic livers. What laws do you pass for that. You can’t even decide what laws to pass today. I can’t, and if I did can you imagine how wrong they would be? Laws are human, they are flawed like the rest of this beautiful mess. Yeah. Kill ‘em all. Only I’m not going to pull the trigger or tie the noose- those guys are big and violent –you do it.

  44. Violet says:

    Back 3000 years a human being might only have wife, livestock, children, and land.

    I beg your pardon?

  45. Infidel says:

    Please forgive my saying ‘Raqa’ to you all. Fiery Gehenna awaits me. As pennance, no blog posts for lent.

    A human being might have a husband. Or not.

  46. Jim Deeny says:

    I question it myself, “6 years”.

    I don’t believe that the blame completely lies with the judicail system completly. Take a look around, the conditioning from porn, magazines, regular TV shows and so forth have set the stage for this type of behavior. There’s a market for perverted thing like the story here are in demand for some. I believe, in my opinion, to make the crime worth the time you’ve got to get rid of the root of the problem, like this type of moral decay against women, if you remove that, then maybe crimes like this would be more profound in society. Remember, if you would remove all the crime in the US, the whole judicial system would go bankrupt.

  47. will says:

    I would suggest that people read about Jamie Olis and other white collar criminals. See the lengthy jail sentences given to them. Remember how much it costs us to keep them locked up every year.

    Does that make sense?

  48. ginmar says:

    One of the New Jersey rape defendants mentioned in Our Guys went on to attempt murder suicide. He was the son of a police officer, and Haidl was the son of a sheriff. What does that say about their fathers?

    The New Jersey guy was allowed to join the military—the Army knew what he’d done—and got sent to Afghanistan. God only knows what he did while he was there in his spare time. I’m sure he was a great guy to serve alongside with….if you were another guy. When he returned home, he tried to kill his estranged wife and her new boyfriend. Then he killed himself.

    What a wonderful dad he must have had.

  49. Alon Levy says:

    Take a look around, the conditioning from porn, magazines, regular TV shows and so forth have set the stage for this type of behavior.

    No, they don’t. The only piece of evidence linking porn to rape is the fact that rapists are more likely to consume porn than non-rapists; however, inferring a causal link between porn and rape from that requires committing about 17 logical fallacies. More indicative research, which looks at the correlation between the rate of rape and porn consumption, has shown no correlation or a small negative correlation in every country but Japan. In addition, studies about the psychological effects of watching porn have failed to link them to rape, except one, which didn’t properly control for certain factors and is therefore worthless.

    So far, root-cause policies have completely failed to do anything to the rape rate. The strongest predictor of the rate of rape in every country remains the murder rate (in almost all Western countries, the rape-to-murder ratio is between 1 to 6 and 1 to 10, when taking the rape rate per 100,000 people rather than per 100,000 women). There’s no such thing as a rape problem; there’s a violent crime problem, which includes murder, rape, and assault. The only policy I know of that only affects some violent crimes is gun control, which reduces the murder rate while leaving the rates of rape and assault unchanged; when removing the US, which has an exceptional gun control policy, the correlation between rape and murder becomes even stronger.

    Now, the most tangible option for reducing the American crime rate – I have no idea whether it applies to other countries – is to make birth control more readily available. Roe vs. Wade appears to have been one of the driving forces behind the 1990s’ crime drop (another is the reduction in unemployment in the 1990s). It follows that making contraceptives and abortion easier to obtain for poor women will reduce crime even more, in the 2020s. Beyond that, the policies that will work best are those that involve reducing the rates of poverty and inequality, which are known to be strongly correlated with violent crime. These, however, have no chance in hell of passing the political process, since they involve throwing money at the problem, to the tune of a trillion dollars a year.

  50. ginmar says:

    Uh, Alon, rape is a crime directed at women becuase they’re women. We’re not talking crime in general: we’re talking about crime against women. Get it? Reducing the number of people does not reduce the hatred directed against women.

  51. Violet says:

    Alon, I think you’re kind of missing the larger point Jim was trying to make about a whole matrix of behaviors. As far as I know there is no reliable evidence that porn consumption leads to rape, but I don’t believe that’s exactly what Jim was saying.

    What is going on is the mainstreaming of extreme porn, from anal rape (apparently de rigeur now in standard het porn) to snuff films. Consider the fact that the defense in this case was able to argue and apparently convince some people that this horrific gang-rape was intended as porn film. Anecdotally, there are increasing reports of women being pressued to perform sex acts men have seen in porn films, of men behaving as if their sex partners (willing or not*) were porn performers, and so on. The pornification of society, as Twisty likes to call it, is real.

    This is much more complex than a simple causal relationship between pornography and rape. It’s a Big Picture kind of thing. What do we do about it? I don’t know.

    By the way, your statistics on the non-reduction of rape aren’t reliable because of historical underreporting. That is, it’s impossible to compare rape rates now to 40 years ago and say feminist consciousness-raising has had no effect.

    (*Edited — sorry. I was thinking of the recent case where three boys watched porn films on their computer and were inspired to emulate what they’d seen by ejaculating on the face of a sleeping girl.)

  52. Al E Pistle says:

    49: I like your paper until you start equating violent crime (and we were discussing rape) with poverty an inequality. I am a minority where I live and I feel it. But I choose to live here regardless. I have never been poverty stricken, but I have been close on at least one occasion many years ago, yet I didn’t turn to crime and drugs. And I have never been a consumer of porn or fantasized about raping anyone. So am I predisposed not to be a criminal because I believe what people own is theirs, including their bodies, and ‘taking’ it for my own use is anathema to me? Or is it that the fear of punishment keeps me out of the horrible cycle of rape instituted by a 6,000 year training period of male dominance?

    Pah. I am not a criminal because I’m not wired that way. Other people are because they are wired as sociopaths. Jail does not cure sociopathics. NOTHING cures serial rapists. No amount of equality or money makes a criminal honest. How many hollywood stars are caught doing crimes? How many politicians? Statistically, just as many as in the general population. Can you blame that on inequality or poverty? No. That excuse is merely an old liberal cop-out like gun ownership.

    I will make this point ad nauseum. If I see a female passed out at a party, it will never occur to me to mutilate her or to allow anyone else to do so. If I see a cute girl somewhere, the thought of raping her or following her home for a fun evening of torture, murder and mutilation simply does not exist in my brain. People who DO those things are not predisposed because of having learned it at home or bacause of some notion that they are unequal to anyone else or don’t have enough money. When I didn’t have enough money to finish my graduate degree I joined the Marine Corps. I served an extended combat tour and they paid for my college tuition. ANYONE can do that.

    Criminals like Ron Lay at Enron do what they do because thet think they are too smart to be caught…..but even if they are caught and given 18 months at a federal country club, they get to keep millions of dollars. In my administration, they and their families would be conscripted to work at their best aptitude until ALL the money was repaid, plus a hefty fine. Then they could go out onto the street with the clothes on their backs and start their lives over.

  53. Alon Levy says:

    Uh, Alon, rape is a crime directed at women becuase they’re women. We’re not talking crime in general: we’re talking about crime against women. Get it? Reducing the number of people does not reduce the hatred directed against women.

    The day you produce evidence that there’s any rape-specific policy that works, except for chemically castrating rapists and registering sex offenders, is the day I’ll believe you.

    By the way, your statistics on the non-reduction of rape aren’t reliable because of historical underreporting. That is, it’s impossible to compare rape rates now to 40 years ago and say feminist consciousness-raising has had no effect.

    I’m not comparing rape rates now to rape rate 40 years ago. All of my data points are post-1981, and many of the countries I looked at have no underreporting problems of rape (in Britain, for example, 75% of rapes are reported to the police, a rate that is higher than this of every other crime but homicide and vehicle theft). Here I’m exploiting the fact that not all countries are equally feminist; of course, the main problem is that it’s impossible to make meaningful comparisons between different civilizations, or else I’d also throw East Asian countries into the mix. But still, if feminism reduced rape, Sweden’s rape-to-murder ratio would be very low, whereas in fact it isn’t (in 1998 the reported ratio was about 10 to 1, but in Sweden murder is overreported).

    Consider the fact that the defense in this case was able to argue and apparently convince some people that this horrific gang-rape was intended as porn film. Anecdotally, there are increasing reports of women being pressued to perform sex acts men have seen in porn films, of men behaving as if their sex partners were porn performers, and so on.

    These represent a small minority of rapes, apparently, though my evidence here is very circumstantial. In Canada, the murder rate is 2.0, and the aggravated sexual assault rate (which encompasses things like what your post describes) is 0.7. Canadian law doesn’t distinguish rape from sexual assault, so there are no rape statistics, but using the common murder-to-rape ratio, we can get something like 15. Just like the average experience of rape involves a prepetrator who is known to the victim, so is the average experience nothing close to aggravated.

    On another note, I don’t think this case proves that American society doesn’t care about rape. The key fact is that the accused included sons of important people who pulled a lot of strings and paid a lot of money to make sure they were acquitted. From the O.J. trial we already know that in the US, rich people can get away with murder; why not rape, then?

    How many hollywood stars are caught doing crimes? How many politicians? Statistically, just as many as in the general population.

    Not when you’re talking about violent crime or blue-collar property crime. The rates of unemployment and poverty are significantly correlated to the crime rate in many countries.

    I am not a criminal because I’m not wired that way. Other people are because they are wired as sociopaths.

    Most murderers aren’t Charles Manson and Ted Bundy.

  54. Al E Pistle says:

    I invite all of you to join the Zogby poll. It askes the questions I want to answer.

    http://interactive.zogby.com/pollregistration/registration/index.cfm

  55. Violet says:

    Alon –

    ay yi yi yi yi — I’d hoped to get away without having to delve into this, but a few reasons why simplistic analysis of rape statistics don’t work:

    1. Rape is not just a function of violent crime; it is a particular sort of misogynist crime and is heavily influenced by culture. (A billion citations — read Brownmiller for starters).
    2. You want to show that rape is a constant function of violent crime, but then cite ratios ranging from 1:6 to 1:10, which rather suggests otherwise.
    3. Feminist re-education about rape generally produces greater reporting of rape, which may have the effect of masking concomitant reductions in the actual rate of crime.
    4. Since rape often functions as a form of violent control of women, it is possible that in the short term a higher incidence of rape could actually be a response to feminist transformations of society.
    5. There are no feminist countries, including Sweden. Sweden is a sexist society with a superimposed feminist legal structure.

    Your basic observations are correct that rape is connected to the levels of violence in a society and that so far rape incidence has proved resilient. I’m just pointing out that the situation is complex, the correlations are not simple, and feminism is in early days yet.

  56. Al E Pistle says:

    From 53: Most murderers aren’t Charles Manson and Ted Bundy.

    Correct. MOST murderers are family members. But that is not what we are talking about. Or at least I’m not. I am talking about violent serial offenders and the fact that they cannot be ‘cured’.

    From 53: Not when you’re talking about violent crime or blue-collar property crime. The rates of unemployment and poverty are significantly correlated to the crime rate in many countries.

    Sorry, you can’t shotgun a statistic as a fact. We all understand statistical analysis and it is an imperfect science except for the point the statistician wants to make. We are discussing violent serial sexual sadists in the United States, not the vectors of HIV transmission in Uganda.(The virgin cure, etc.)

  57. Al E Pistle says:

    From 55: There are no feminist countries, including Sweden. Sweden is a sexist society with a superimposed feminist legal structure.

    What was Victorian England? How do you define a ‘feminist’ country?

  58. Al E Pistle says:

    Oh, wait! According to this gentleman AMERICA is a feminist society. http://www.newswithviews.com/Usher/david2.htm

  59. Jeff says:

    Oh, wait! According to this gentleman AMERICA is a feminist society. http://www.newswithviews.com/Usher/david2.htm

    Yeah, right. Two paragraphs of that story told me right away that this guy doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground. Didn’t even bother to read the rest.

  60. Violet says:

    What was Victorian England?
    Very sexist, of course. What else would it have been?

    How do you define a ‘feminist’ country?
    A feminist country would be one where the society is feminist in outlook and the legal structure reflects that. There are no modern nations where that is true.

  61. Jim Deeny says:

    Alon- what I was saying was: The 6 years these men got is because of the acceptance of porn in our society, not directly linking porn causes rape. If porn was literally deleted from our society then when a rape would happen it would have a more of a profound affect on the people in our society. I’ve seen people in tribes from other countries do things like rolling up their penis in a bamboo shute, or bungee jumping with a vine and smashing to the ground, to me, that’s some stupid and weird stuff. But, to the tribes it’s normal. Same goes with rape being shunned because society and the “general” public has had our minds co9nditioned for so long on porn and soft porn. It’s like a cushion of conscience.

  62. Jeff says:

    Alon- what I was saying was: The 6 years these men got is because of the acceptance of porn in our society, not directly linking porn causes rape. If porn was literally deleted from our society then when a rape would happen it would have a more of a profound affect on the people in our society. I’ve seen people in tribes from other countries do things like rolling up their penis in a bamboo shute, or bungee jumping with a vine and smashing to the ground, to me, that’s some stupid and weird stuff. But, to the tribes it’s normal. Same goes with rape being shunned because society and the “general” public has had our minds co9nditioned for so long on porn and soft porn. It’s like a cushion of conscience.

    Jim, I don’t think porn really has much more to do with society’s acceptance of rape than it has to do with causing it. Sure, there are always going to be people on whom it has that influence, but not society in general. I feel the causes for it’s acceptance are more in line with the reasons for acceptance of spousal abuse. Things like assuming that either women don’t have the right to choose for themselves, or they really wanted it. And the whole damn thing is sick!

  63. gordo says:

    Pastor–

    Thanks for the Manson info. I’ve always been fascinated by the case, but I don’t think I’ll be writing to any of the family. It was good to hear that you put a good beating on Watson’s ass, but my point remains. You can never tell who can and who can’t be “repaired.”

    Of course, this also means that anyone who crosses as far over the line as this crowd did can never be freed. I’m willing to chip in enough to keep people like Watson alive, though, because I don’t think it’s right to kill a decent person just to save a few bucks. I might not agree with his choice of religion or trust his conversion, but he does seem to have become a person worthy of feeding and housing.

  64. Andrea says:

    Alon seems to have got his statistics from fairyland.

  65. Alon Levy says:

    You want to show that rape is a constant function of violent crime, but then cite ratios ranging from 1:6 to 1:10, which rather suggests otherwise.

    I didn’t say it’s a constant function; I said the murder rate is the single strongest predictor of the rape rate (though in the interest of honesty, I’ll say that I didn’t look at assault). And in fact the 1:6 boundary would be a lot higher if the US didn’t have a gun policy that increased the murder rate disproportionately to the rate of other crimes.

    Feminist re-education about rape generally produces greater reporting of rape, which may have the effect of masking concomitant reductions in the actual rate of crime.

    First, many of my numbers come from surveys, which circumvent the underreporting problem. A country’s level of gender equality is somewhat correlated to its rape reporting rate, but once the rate becomes relatively high, say around 50-60%, it can’t increase fast enough to mask changes in the actual rate. The underreporting statistics I’ve seen from the last 15 years indicate that reporting rates have remained constant or increased very slightly. In general, the numbers I’ve seen suggest that in Europe and New Zealand, the reporting rate for rape is high; it’s the American rate that is anomalous (Canada isn’t strictly comparable because of its different legal definitions, and I think that neither is Australia).

    On another note, “feminist re-education” is only one possible cause of the increase in reporting. In the last 40 years the legal systems have become far more conducive to helping rape victims, with rape shield laws and more supportive judges. The reporting rate may have responded not to consciousness raising, which I have yet to see a shred of evidence that it helped anything that can be quantified, but to legal improvements.

    Since rape often functions as a form of violent control of women, it is possible that in the short term a higher incidence of rape could actually be a response to feminist transformations of society.

    There’s no evidence that such a thing happened. In the US, crime rates soared about the same time the consciousness revolution started, but research into what exactly made them rise suggests that the connection was coincidental. And you should note that Europe’s crime wave began in the late 1980s rather than in the 1960s, even though at least its northern and western parts underwent the same social upheaval.

    There are no feminist countries, including Sweden. Sweden is a sexist society with a superimposed feminist legal structure.

    No, but there are more feminist and less feminist countries, and Sweden is one of the more feminist. My statistics would be a lot more meaningful if they included data from Southern and Eastern Europe, but even within Western Europe there’s enough variation for the effect of feminism on rape to be apparent, if there is one.

    If porn was literally deleted from our society then when a rape would happen it would have a more of a profound affect on the people in our society.

    Actually, if I remember correctly higher porn consumption is correlated to more vigorous prosecution of rape, albeit not causally (in the last 20 years there has been a trend in the West to consume more porn, and an unrelated thread to get tough on crime).

  66. Violet says:

    Pastor and Gordo:

    I too have also always been fascinated by the case. Lived in Sacramento when Squeaky Fromme took a shot at Ford; my mother was in class at Sac State with Sandra Good. Read Helter Skelter as soon as it came out — gave me nightmares for weeks.

    I’ve read of Tex Watson’s conversion and I’ve read part of his book, and I must tell you my impression is that he’s still a psychopath who has found a new way to manipulate people. His wife was a serial-killer groupie, which he interpreted as “God preparing a helpmeet for me.” I’ve read his words and he makes my skin crawl. He doesn’t acknowledge the horrible things he did in a meaningful way; he refers to them as “my crimes” and says he was like a machine during them. Just my surface impression, but I’d say Watson is a classic case of the psycho who finds a new racket in God.

  67. disguestedinal says:

    i want them locked away for life. if you can do this at 17 and 18 – this is who you are. i really don’t care what THEY get out of a prison sentence, these men are willign to drug and rape women. Personally, I do not want these monsters out on the street – for MY protection. They have proven themselves to be dangerous and violent criminals with no ability to feel compassion – violent rapists belong in jail. I do not care if it scares others into avoiding crime – I want them locked up for the general safety of the population – that is what jail is for – not only for the criminal, but to remove dangerous and antisocial people from the rest of us. And yes, when, when, when will we have a *war on violence* instead of petty drugs??? The powers that be simply don’t care. 6 years, Bullshit. Disgusting. This is the message of our society – that no matter what you do to a woman – as long as you don’t kill her – no big deal – even if you videotape yourselve scarring her vagina with a burning cig – that’s not torture – even when they wonder – how far can we stick a pool cube into her body…before what – before she starts to bleed or it kills her? the only thing that surprises me about this is that they let the girl live. They obviously thought she would go away. I really am surprised, esp with the father…I hope she leaves everyone of their families bankrupt. These boys do not deserve to be trust fund babies when they get out. 6 years? A 16 year old girl, raped violently, with burning objects, is worth less than 6 years – there are really no words. What kind of a society says 6 years? I don’t know how to live on days like this. Nothing makes a woman remember how little she is worth as much as things like this. For all the women thinking of coming forward…if they get 6 years for this…videotaped, what the hell is a hesaid/shesaid – 6 months? WE MUST BEGIN RAPE EDUCATION COURSES FOR OUR SOCIETY – THEY TRULY STILL BELIEVE RAPE IS SEX. HELP!!!!!!!

  68. Alon Levy says:

    Hey – O.J.’s wife was worth nothing. If the boys were poor blacks, they’d have gotten 15 years even if the girl had made the story up.

  69. Jeff says:

    It’s not like there’s a video of O. J. killing them. It’s not really a valid comparison. Maybe he did, but they didn’t prove it, but they did manage to ruin his life with the civil suit.

  70. Alon Levy says:

    There’s DNA evidence proving that he killed them, if memory serves.

  71. Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » Rich White Boy Defense: Oops! says:

    [...] Rapist to victim: I didn’t mean to hurt you with that lit cigarette and pool cue [...]

  72. Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » Today’s lesson says:

    [...] Could someone please review the Haidl rape case — or, for that matter, almost any other gang rape case with a female victim in the history of American jurisprudence — and explain the difference to me? [...]

  73. Reclusive Leftist » Blog Archive » Because it bears repeating says:

    [...] So how much has changed in 30 years? Well, I’d say that this kind of victim-blaming is slightly less likely to happen now if your rapist is a complete stranger. But if you’ve ever been introduced to a guy, you’ve basically given him carte blanche to rape you, jam pool cues and broken bottles up your body, burn you with cigarettes, and whatever else he can convince the jury you gave him permission to do when you smiled at him. That is, unless you yourself are male. Curiously enough, it is still true that when men meet each other or become friends or just happen to find themselves at the same party, automatic consent to be raped and tortured is not assumed to be given. The legal system is funny that way. [...]